Not Going Out

Interview: Not Going Out's cast talk about 100 episodes

The 2023 Christmas special of Not Going Out happens to be the sitcom's 100th episode. Here Lee Mack, Sally Bretton, Hugh Dennis, Abigail Cruttenden, Deborah Grant and Geoffrey Whitehead talk about the appeal of studio audience sitcom.

Lee Mack (Lee)

How did the show get started?

I did a sketch show at the Edinburgh Festival with Catherine Tate and Dan Antopolski, and there was a little sketch set in a flat which just grew until it ended up being a quarter of the whole show.

At the time in 2006 we were in the peak of the dark comedy movement...

Yeah, we were not in fashion at all. The night before we made the pilot there was a documentary called The Sitcom Is Dead [Channel 4's Who Killed The British Sitcom?] about how the studio-based sitcom is now in the past. There were a lot more studio sitcoms at that time - Goodnight Sweetheart, My Family, Birds Of A Feather... I think there might be only us and maybe Mrs Brown's Boys now.

They'll often say this type of sitcom is from the seventies. I always find that odd because if you ask people to list their favourite sitcoms ever, they're all from the seventies - Fawlty Towers, Dad's Army, Steptoe And Son. There's something unique about a British studio sitcom with a live audience. And look at the continuing success of Friends on streamers. The main thing I learned is to increase the jokes - American sitcoms just have so many more jokes.

How was it getting Sally Bretton into the show?

Catherine was in the pilot. We got a different person for the first series [Megan Dodds as Kate] and then Sally was in the second series. I'm not just saying this, we did hit it off straight away and we became mates very quickly.

Since we started working together our lives have changed quite a lot. I had a third child, Sally got married and had three, so we have grown with this fictional family at the same time with our own families. Hopefully it's clear we have the chemistry on screen. She's got the skills to deliver gags brilliantly and we've become really good friends.

How do you get such an impressive blend of comics and actors into the cast?

Tim Vine and I did The Sketch Show on ITV together. We used to enjoy these odd sketches at the bar, so I thought it would be nice to bring that into the sitcom as a running theme. We have been very lucky, the cast has been great.

Miranda Hart was great - she did a small part but the audience loved her so we wrote more for her. We've had Timothy West, great theatre and comedy actors. And the current cast of Geoffrey Whitehead, Deborah Grant, Hugh Dennis and Abigail Cruttenden are the best anyone could hope for. The cast have all been so strong.

I'm amazed at the quality of actors and comedians we keep getting on screen. It is a very gag driven sitcom so all of the characters are being funny and everyone can deliver the gags - I didn't realise when I started how rare that is and we've just had the best.

And you also had Bobby Ball playing your father. This has a great historical link for you, doesn't it?

Yeah. When I was a kid growing up my first recollection of doing anything performance-based was on the playground roof doing an impression of Bobby to show off to the kids at school. When we were looking for someone to play my dad I wanted a comic to do it rather than an actor. The second Bobby walked in he was so much like my real dad that it was unbelievable. Years later, after he'd got the part, my uncle said Bobby had actually met my dad because he played the pub we grew up in. I never knew that. It was so shocking when Bobby passed away from Covid.

There was a great tribute to him in your wedding episode?

Tommy Cannon was the priest, so it was nice to see Tommy and Bobby. We never usually break the fourth wall but in that one we thought it might be the last ever episode so I said to Bob, just because it might be the last episode, pull the jacket back and pull the red braces. For young people that was his catchphrase. He did it. I like things being done very specifically and I said, 'yeah, it's good that Bob but you're not quite doing it correctly'. He went, 'I've been pulling these braces for fifty years, don't tell me how to pull me own red braces'. But he wasn't doing it right.

What do you like about the live audience?

We've done a couple of location specials but then we play it to an audience, and we collect the laughs live as they're watching it. We also did a Covid series with nobody at all and it felt flat. We rehearse in front of an audience just to perfect the gags. Without the laughs it does sound odd. There's room for both gritty comedy and laugh out loud comedy. We have learned to watch comedy and not mind if we're not laughing but appreciate the brilliance and the nuance. I love those shows, but it doesn't mean we should forget the shows where people just laugh out loud.

In 2009 the show was cancelled but there was a huge campaign which got it back on air.

That was Series 3, just as we'd settled in and people were coming up to me in the street and going 'oh I love the show'. It got cancelled perfectly at the right time because the internet was kicking off. Nowadays you get asked to sign something on a weekly basis but it was quite unusual at the time and that's when I realised it was having an impact. People were coming up to me in the street and saying thank you just for making them laugh - I realised it is quite important to make people laugh.

The other big flip in the show's life is when you went from the wedding to seven years later; the married couple with kids...

At this point in our real lives, I was already married and had three children, I thought it would be nice to move it on. There's only so long you can have 'will they, won't they'. So we got together, there was a one-off Christmas special with a baby. Then we jumped to seven years later because I wanted to write about what I know. I think it gave me the chance to write what I know.

Do your real lives ever become plot points in the script?

Sometimes we will mine our real lives. I came up with an idea that we play a fantasy 'who would you shag?' and I'm jealous of Lucy saying she would have her dentist - that's not the idea of the game; you've got to pick someone famous not someone that you actually see on a regular basis. Then I go and see the dentist to check him out. My co-writer Danny said something like that happened to him in real life.

Where did the story for the new Christmas episode come from?

We knew it was going to be the hundredth episode and we really wanted it to be close to a classic British farce, so originally it was gonna start with Happy 100th on a big banner, my great aunt was going to be a hundred years-old and she was going to have a mishap. But I love Christmas, love the Christmas traditions, I always do the cooking, and it seemed there was more comedy in the mishap happening to Father Christmas. The good thing about a Christmas episode is that you're always looking at ways to get everyone in a room together. That just lends itself to comedy. And Christmas makes that easy.

How do you feel about the prospect of one hundred more?

Well, I'm not sure about another hundred but discussions are ongoing now and we will be back with you shortly with some more information one way or the other.

Sally Bretton (Lucy)

How did you get the role?

At the time, I was doing a lot of comedy. I'd done The Office, I'd done Green Wing and so this was just another one to go in for. I'd never seen it, so watched it and laughed so much. I remember telling some friends and they were like, "Oh my God, that's my favourite, that's my favourite." It was quite an intimidating audition but Lee was super warm and Tim Vine was there too and he was lovely. Then it was just call back after call back and eventually I got it.

How was your first day?

I turned up very nervous for the readthrough, and Lee just casually dropped in that the audience were turning up in a couple of hours. The audience? For a readthrough? Stand-ups practise their jokes in front of audiences then they go back and see what works and cut it and so on. It's a warm-up gig. Usually this doesn't happen in television, you just sit round a table, it's all very subdued and performances aren't given their full weight, it's just sort of gently read. So this was not what I was expecting. And then the whole choreography of a studio sitcom you have to learn quite fast. You feel it's scary at the beginning and then you get the hang of it.

What's the difference between the single camera things like The Office, and Green Wing and the more traditional studio sitcom?

It's a heightened performance, not a naturalistic performance. The way Lee writes it, he packs it full of so many gags, it has a rhythm that needs to be listened to. You don't have that in single camera stuff in the same way. You've also got to deliver it allowing for an audience eruption of laughter.

What was she like when you first started playing her and how did she change?

She was ambitious, more opinionated and she was more judgmental, but I think we are when we're younger, aren't we? Over the years I think she's definitely warmed up. She made out she was a head-hunter but really, she wasn't actually that good at it. She'd mess up and then Lee with a good heart would try and step in, and it invariably would make everything worse.

How did you imagine her gradual growing affection towards him?

Well, he wasn't a great prospect. She didn't even think of him like that. He was often late on his rent and the way he paid was through some dodgy scheme. He never seemed to have a proper job and was causing a lot of chaos around the place. He would be nice, he would pick her up, or he would care and would try and make things right for her. I just it was drip, drip, drip over the years. And he's funny, isn't he? That goes a long way.

How has it been growing up with her?

Over the years we were playing the will-they, won't-they story while Lee's coming into to rehearsals with funny stories about what's happened at home as a dad. I might be sharing bits and bobs as well. And Lee realised there was more material in a family than maybe the dating. He didn't want all the romance of newlyweds, so we'll just get straight to shouting at each other and stuff like that [laughs].

The new relationship between Lee and Lucy, she has this optimism that each time he promises her that something will be different it will. How does she keep that after all these years?

I think it's because he thinks it too. His intentions are good and so that's what she always sees. And, also, she doesn't always take much responsibility for stuff she does. She might land them in something and make him go and sort it out. She's not perfect.

To be fair, in the Christmas episode, she has already decided that they're having an older person from the home over for Christmas lunch without asking him.

That's what I mean, it's a conspiracy of equals. And the result is such a good farce. It's just one thing after another, after another. It involves everybody and the story gathers and gathers and gathers and gathers, and that's what I enjoy about it.

What's Lee like to work with? Is he quite a stickler?

Ah, no, I don't think he is. When I've got to do something and I can't quite work out the rhythm of it, or why it's not landing right in my brain, I'll go to him and he'll help me with it. He hears jokes like a drumkit. He makes everyone who turns up on the show feel really welcome and he's really interested in them. That's not always the case with people, especially on things that have been running a long time. He makes people feel safe and part of a team fast, so that helps. And he has the most creative way of writing his lines on set.

Writing the script on set?

No, his actual lines. There's a camping episode we did where we were filming it in a car in front of a studio audience. Lee had written his lines on the map and so he had to go keep moving the map to keep it in his eyeline. I don't know what the camera saw, but I was crying with laughter. So if you see him suddenly look to the left or pick up something and read it, that's always his lines.

Do any of your own life stories end up in the script?

It's always in the back of my mind because Lee and Danny do mine their own lives. Lee has a very alive brain and he's always listening. He won't use stories but he might hear a phrase or two and just drop it in to the script in a way that makes you clap in outraged laughter - these in-jokes that have the danger of making you corpse but that other people don't quite realise how powerful they are. The audience don't mind if you mess up. They don't really mind if you mess up twice; they start to mind after that.

Obviously the show was saved by a fan campaign at one point. Do you get the sense from people who come up to you in the street what they love about it?

I think he packs it full of so many laugh out loud moments. There aren't that many shows on telly like that. People I speak to who have been going through hard times often say they go back to it because it's a world where they just laugh. They're not thinking about other things. It's fast enough to keep your mind on it so you get distracted. I get a lot of people coming up to me who say, "I was really going through things and this was the only thing that I could actually watch," because it's there to entertain and surprise you with things that make you laugh out of nowhere. That's what he's good at, isn't he?

Hugh Dennis (Toby)

How did you get the role?

I came as an actor in a rather lovely way. I'd seen Lee around and I'd always thought he's brilliant because for me he's like the bridge between new and old. He loves old comics in a way that many of us do and then he's also incredibly modern. He perfectly spans these two worlds.

Steve Punt and I used to write in The Royal Festival Hall and Lee was there with [producer] Jamie Rix and we chatted. Then I got asked if I would do the part of Toby. I think they had to ask permission from the BBC to see whether I could be in both Not Going Out and Outnumbered, which had just finished, and that's how it started.

What's it like working on a big studio sitcom?

I'm very used to audiences. The whole thing about sitcom if you are an 'actor-actor' is that it's so bitty. It's not like going seeing a live show because it stops all the time and there are cameras in between you and the audience. I think it's a particular skillset to get across the bank of cameras and booms and people with clipboards. I can see why people might find that scary but I'm very used to it now.

How would you describe the character of Toby?

He's a doctor - I've played a number of doctors over the years - and he's the opposite of Lee. There's a lovely friendship with the sensible one and the stupid one but somewhere in the middle they share something. He's fun to play, he's an observer of the madness but he somehow gets sucked into it because Lee has led him into it. He's not a classic a straight-man though, because all the characters get to deliver jokes and that's why it's fun.

Do you have any favourite episodes?

I think my favourite one was three Christmas specials ago where we filmed it overnight in a department store in Windsor. We did five straight nights but on the last day, the store had not told us that their sale was beginning. So all the colours of everything in the shop changed. There was much rushing around and covering things and taking signs down and we did an awful lot of close ups. We also did a great one in an escape room, which was genuinely quite claustrophobic. You got this genuine feeling of, "Oh my god, I might never get out."

How was it filming the series that brings it to the 100th episode?

It is an astonishing achievement, isn't it? No one gets to 100 episodes, do they? I mean no one. Lee is really across everything and writes it and I think that's unique. American sitcoms are all team written. I think it's probably driven him half mad, but it's an amazing thing to have done.

Is it a strong episode for Toby, the Christmas special?

Yeah. I get caught up in Lee's catastrophe and I'm quite cross with him for having got me into it in the first place. I'm very doctorly in it, although I wouldn't say I actually have any medical knowledge. What I do have is that thing doctors have where they are incredibly open and not worried about saying the most outrageous stuff very casually. They have to be taught bedside manner, don't they, because their natural inclination is just to say, "you're dying." That's Toby.

Do people come up to you and talk about Not Going Out?

All the time, actually. I think they respond to it because they laugh a lot. I don't know how to do this without sounding incredibly clichéd but it's both modern and old style and I think that's sort of what people love about it. It harks back to the great sitcoms of the past and at the same time looks forward. I mean, Bobby Ball was in it for so long and we get all sorts of people to guest star who everyone has admired over the years - like Melvyn Hayes in this series [playing Ernest in Series 13, Episode 7]. All British comedy is there and there's no distinction made between any bits of it.

Abigail Cruttenden (Anna)

How did you get involved in the show?

I was called in and met Jamie Rix - they wanted to cast quite early. Lee and Danny had written a character but wanted to cast it before they started writing the whole series. I think they like to know who they're writing for, it's useful because they're writing to your rhythm.

We started filming in 2014. My mum had been ill, and she died around Christmas then we started rehearsing in February. I remember being in the room with Lee and Hugh and everybody and really laughing. I remember finishing that day and thinking, 'oh my God, I haven't laughed like that for so long'.

Had you done any studio sitcom before?

Well, I'd done Benidorm, but that wasn't studio based. Studio sitcoms are the hardest thing as it's not like a play where you've rehearsed for weeks. For Lee, Hugh, the comedians who guest on it and Bobby when he was with us, they just turn to the audience all the time, riffing away in between takes.

When they muck up, they're hilarious. Even though my brother's a stand-up [Hal Cruttenden], I just don't have that at all, and I really keep my head down and try and stay focused. I'd love to be able to have that skill, I just don't have it. Thank God for them because it keeps the evening really good fun.

How would you describe Anna?

Lee always indulges the fact that I always fight her corner in the rehearsal room. Whoever you're playing, however awful they are, you've got to find for yourself some truth in it. So, I think that she's just quite frightened of the world and wants things to be a certain way.

Although Toby is looked at as hen-pecked, I think that really isn't the way it is. There's an episode in the last series where he was off nearly having an affair. It was really weird on the night because you could just feel the audience all the way through thinking that Anna was having an affair. The audience really hated me, and you could feel it. Then, when it turned, they didn't know what to do. I spoke to someone afterwards who said, "it was such a shock that she was actually not the one that was having the affair, because we were so ready for her to be horrible."

How has she changed over the years?

Lucy was more in awe of Anna at first, because we were the established couple. Now Lee and Lucy have become more settled it's more of an equal head-to-head. And Lee's got a little bit nastier to poor old Anna. We have rules in place because there are some times where I say, "that is too much, I really don't like that."

You have a good chemistry with Hugh Dennis - does that take years of knowing someone?

I love working with him, we get on really well. I would count him as a friend of mine.

What's Lee Mack like to work with?

One of the moments that I think says a lot about Lee, and where I was really grateful, was my very first episode. It is so terrifying, and I was so frightened in front of a studio audience. He knew I was. I did muck up my second entrance and Lee pretended it was him and made a joke out of himself. I felt very looked after. I always thought he was a brilliant, classic comedian.

Do you have any favourite episodes?

I have a least favourite. The Live one. That was really scary. I had to sing The Element Song - "there's antimony, arsenic, aluminium, selenium and hydrogen.". I learnt it really well for months and I still know the whole thing. Then during the middle of the show, I had a big gap, and I went out to the loo before I did the song. But, of course, because it was a live recording, they'd locked the doors, so I couldn't get back in. I was running up and down the corridors trying to find someone to let me into the studio so that I was there for the Element song. That added an extra little level of danger.

Do you know what the audience respond to in the show and in Anna?

Well, I do get people just saying that they love Anna which I am amazed when that happens. Quite recently in an Apple store the guy serving me at the end said, "I just have to say that I just love you so much, Anna." You don't expect people to love Anna but I'm quite fond of her, so maybe some other people are too. When you hear about people in EastEnders playing baddies and getting abuse, I've never had anything like that.

What do you think of the Christmas/100th episode?

It feels like a classic farce. It's almost like an old school Brian Rix stage farce. That sort of comedy is so incredibly hard to write, it's the hardest of all, I think. We did record it in April, which is strange, but we've got so used to it. I really enjoy filming the Christmas episode because I like Christmas so I can get into the Christmas spirit any time of year. Once or twice, we've recorded the Christmas episode in November and that is perfect because it makes me do the shopping early. I'm really a hopeless late shopper.

Deborah Grant (Wendy)

How well do you remember getting the part, do you remember the process?

I've never been brave enough to ask. I joined in 2007 on Series 2 with Timothy West as my husband then. I had worked with Tim before, I did my first West End play with Tim back in 1968 then I played his wife in Edward VII. Whether he suggested me I don't know. My only other connection with anybody was the fact that Jamie Rix, Brian Rix's son, had seen me in a play with his dad in the West End when he was probably 12. I shared a dressing room with Joanna Lumley and in my fantasy mind little Jamie came and gave us notes, but I might be wrong.

And then Timothy left...

We only did, I think, two episodes together which was why I suppose they thought it was worth the risk of replacing him. He and Geoffrey Whitehead couldn't be less alike really could they? The character's the same it's just that they have a slightly different appearance (laughs)...

How would you describe Wendy?

I was still able to be glamorous when I started, and I was supposed to be the glamorous mother-in-law that Lee slightly fancied. I'm far too old for that now and as soon as they were married we had to sort of knock that on the head anyway. Then we did the huge jump of the children so I'm just an old lady now.

You're also one of the kindest wouldn't you say?

At the wedding I did get to say 'I'll have the fucking bollocks off the pair of them' which gave me great pleasure and the audience screamed with laughter. Every time I had to repeat it - the way you do when things are being recorded - they still laughed. They obviously found it very funny that this slightly posh lady was swearing.

I think I've always been both charmed and irritated by Lee in the way that Lucy is, in complete contrast to Geoffrey who's just so rude about him all the time. I suppose I'm somewhere in between trying to keep things on an even keel.

Do you have any favourite episodes?

I got very drunk in the very last episode with darling Bobby Ball - what a terrible loss. It was New Year's Eve episode, filmed during Covid and we all had to sit a yard apart. Somebody went round and measured the distance between us, it was bizarre, we sat and talked. I was allowed to be very drunk in that which was great fun. Bobby was forever flirting with my character, and I was lapping it up. It was so lovely, he was such a darling man. There was also one trapped in the rain in the woods, that was hysterical. It was hell but it was hysterical because we were soaked to the skin.

There was a great tribute to Bobby/Frank episode where you painted him in oils...

I think he might have enjoyed that, I hoped he would. Bobby was a great example of the strange magic of the show. He was brilliant on stage as a stand-up, but in this he was a very good actor actually. Just like Lee, he has become a very good actor over the years hasn't he?

How do you find the live audience, both in the read throughs and in the recording?

I like the readings in the pub. They're fun, it's easy and there's no pressure. You know that they're only recording it to see where the laughs are so that's alright. They have a wonderful team of people who come in and read umpteen different characters, they're brilliant. I find the studio audience terrifying. Other people say that they love it and I can't understand that. I would so rather not have an audience watching me go wrong or watching endless retakes for all sorts of reasons. I know it makes it better but I find it terrifying.

Why do you think it's lasted so long and is so loved?

I think it's just a one-off, it's unique. Sally is breath-taking. She's so endearing, both on and off-screen. She tempers this madness of Lee, and somehow makes it real. Lee is just wonderful, he's really kind and thoughtful, not grand and not starry. I have a very happy memory when Sal had her twins and came back to work within six weeks of them being born, we were rehearsing and she had one baby in her arms and Lee would be walking around with the other baby. I thought this is wonderful, this is a man who lives in the real world.

Geoffrey Whitehead (Geoffrey)

Were you a fan of the show before you were cast in it?

Yes, I'd seen the show, and I enjoyed it. Tim West played the role before me, I thought - I'm in that category, that age, and when I read the script, I liked it. Deborah Grant is a very good actress, and it was a very nice offer. Now the dust has settled, and I've had time to put it into perspective, I realise what an astonishing achievement this show is. It's quite unique, isn't it, in British television. Up there with Seinfeld and Larry David but the money that's spent in America is so much more, so it's remarkable what Lee's done. However...

However?

It is a genre that I've never really been comfortable with. When I make a mistake, I sort of stand there looking rather foolish and stupid. Whereas when Lee makes a mistake, he'll go off on a riff for ten minutes, make a joke of it, and it turns into another show. Lee obviously, he loves them. He is the last bastion of the official sitcom. He thinks he gives it an energy and a pace, and everybody's high as a kite, and there's a certain truth in that. But for me, I like to do ten minutes, sit down, have a cup of tea... [laughter]. As Alan Alda said, the first rule of being an actor is, find somewhere to sit.

So, day one was a bit of a shock?

A shock? On my first day filming in a lovely old dance hall down in the East End I had to punch Lee. I thought, "My god, what have I got myself into?". Jamie Rix, who is a good producer and very good with Lee, helped a lot that day. Since then, apart from the terror of the table reads it's been a joy.

The terror of the table reads?

[Laughs] When I started I found that doing the table reads in a small theatre in front of an audience was stressful and unnecessary. But over time I think it's one of the most valuable things they do. Once we've done it, there's a two week lull while Lee listens back to the recordings and adjusts things so we have a fresh script without having to talk about it for ages.

When you're coming to a part where there has been a previous actor do you watch the previous actor's work?

No. I mean, I saw him in an episode before I was going for the part but really you play the man on the page. Geoffrey Adams is buttoned-up, old-school, a bit of a sense of humour but rarely shows it. His wife is there to serve his every need, but she has a bit of sparkle about her, which hints at a good physical relationship. His main concern on that show his... I won't say dislike, but his trust issue with Lee and his motives. He thinks Lee is a bit of a free-loader, and he never quite can put his finger on what he's up to but knows usually it's something not quite as it should be [laughter].

What's Lee Mack like to work with?

He creates a very good atmosphere. He's very generous, he's always buying things, giving people things, and he has a word for everybody. If anything, he tries to do too much - play all the parts, make all the sets [laughter].

He does write good parts for older people. Bobby, Deborah, myself, he casts people and gives us good, funny lines - and that's a good thing because when you get to a certain age the parts aren't there. He writes very well for me. You don't want to become a bit one dimensional and just be grumpy all the time. This Christmas episode he gives me some kind lines, where I approve of him. There's a scene which I'd love him to have written - the scene where he asks for Lucy's hand in marriage. He never wrote it. Sometimes he says he'll do a flashback but then you're going to have to do quite a lot of extensive work on my face.

Do you have any favourite episodes?

Well, I always like the half hour ones in real time, like Train, Escape Room and Parachute, which I think is my favourite of all episodes. Another fight with Lee, when we were fighting over the last parachute [laughter], because there was only one left, and we both ended up on the floor. Then a picture of his kids fell out of his pocket, and I became full of remorse and let him have the parachute.

You have great chemistry with Deborah - had you worked with her before?

No. I knew of her because she was very famous from Bouquet Of Barbed Wire when she was a siren. I mean, she was talk of the town. But we very quickly struck up a bond, now we're great friends. If one of us is having a bad day, we'll comfort each other. It's that sort of show, you know?

It's an unusual show in having lots of stand-up comedians in the cast. Are they easy to act with?

Yes, I supposed you have Lee, Tim Vine, Hugh Dennis, Bobby Ball, Miranda Hart, Katy Wix... we're worlds apart. I can't think of getting up and doing stand-up. Miranda is a very good actress, and the others are quick, clever, sharp, and watch us straight actors and learn. You look back over old episodes. They turn themselves into good actors, so the two merge and meld. If you look back at Lee's performance it's much more naturalistic. Although don't tell him that.