Quote: Seefacts @ January 6, 2008, 2:40 PMAre you trying to prove something to me?
For me, that doesn't work anyway.
Yes, that if my work came to you as an editor it would be in the bin but this particular script has been read/workshopped at a comedy night and had the 'audience' in stitches.
It was quite an eye opening experience when I recorded sketches. If you have a page with one joke you kind of skim-read through that page when editing and it seems OK. But when you're listening to the dialog being acted in real-time it's excruciating knowing there's another 30 seconds of talking until your next joke. So I would agree with the 3 laughs per page minimum even if it looks like too much.
Quote: bushbaby @ January 6, 2008, 2:54 PMYes, that if my work came to you as an editor it would be in the bin but this particular script has been read/workshopped at a comedy night and had the 'audience' in stitches.
Why is 'audience' in inverted commas?
Quote: Seefacts @ January 6, 2008, 3:43 PMWhy is 'audience' in inverted commas?
They were a mixture of other writers and their friends. There wasn't an entry fee
I've been eyeing this thread with a mind to weigh in for a while now.
I think it's a fascinating area of discussion as far as comedy writing goes, and there are valid arguments on both sides of the fence.
Certainly there are comedies that amount to pretty much nothing on the page. Take the Fast Show for instance. A man walks out of a potting shed and says "This week I have mostly been eating... sprouts." Hardly a recipe for hilarity in written form, but when performed, it seemed to strike a chord with a great many people.
The trouble, I think, is that so many fledgling writers imagine that their writing will be knock-down hilarious given the proper treatment, but too often that attitude is simply an excuse for flat writing.
Yes, there are examples of fine programmes that read very dull on the page (and the Royle Family is an excellent example of one) but for the most part, a great script simply works. And why is that? I have a theory.
Jokes.
There are so many scripts out there calling themselves comedies with barely a joke in them. I mean, tonnes. Lots and lots. And they get shit-canned again and again.
So what do the writers do?
They blame the reader. They act like its the reader's fault for not understanding the nuance of their work. They tell them it's not a sit-com, it's a 'dramady'. They say they don't like the set-up/punch of American comedy and want to go a different way. They don't do 'jokes'.
And sometimes, certainly with more established writers, they have a point. They aren't getting a fair deal. Their writing is too subtle on the page. There are shades of comedy that just aren't registering. So? Workshop it. Find people to perform in it. Better yet, do it yourself. If you really believe your dialogue is misunderstood, prove it. There are ways into comedy other than submitting unsolicited blueprints to strangers - you just have to fight harder to back up that self belief is all. Bushbaby has the right idea, getting her stuff performed - the next step is to put it in front of strangers and see if the laughs keep coming.
And if all that sounds like too much effort, and you want to carry on mailing out scripts and let that be the end of it, well, maybe you need to go back to basics. And write some jokes.
I agree with Dave Bussell big time on this. I think it's really important for sketch and sitcom writers to get their stuff performed early on in its development. I am not a performer but got into a performing sketch group as I wanted to try my work out with others. If you can't find like minded people to try stuff out you may need to move nearer to a village or a town..
The problem I find is that British TV will not have American type...i.e. loads of jokes/quips sitcoms. They want the stuff like The family that raises a chuckle or two but not belly-laughs, so your script can be riddled with smart jokes but they won't have 'em and seeing that they have the upperhand there's nought a script writer can do except try and write a sitcom in the safe format they prefer. I don't know if this is laziness on the part of the editors or lack of courage but it is the same in the casting world. Casting Directors play safe by continually casting the same bloody actors 
The sample of a script further up...i.e. the two old codgers playing golf is part of a sitcom that's at the writersroom Beeb at present. I expect it to come whizzing back, rejected. any day now even though it's in their safe format, I am new to them and as such they'll not dare risk it.
I am an Equity member and have performed professionally, mainly comedy roles and know about how the whole stinking business works.
On top of this and totally not wishing to sound racist but a few years back I was in a bar, a members bar in London and met through other friends a script editor, he had a top notch position and had the last word on scripts, in a certain genre, it wasn't sitcoms. During the conversation, I learned that he was early twenties and had been in this country about eight years. He was a Vietnamese.
Can someone tell me how he would understand a Lancashire comedy about a massage parlour and get the Lancs humour? Furthermore, that particular sitcom was sent back to me signed with an Asian name
Hi Bush I was a businessman in another industry and worked at very senior level for twenty years (with directors/owners of big businesses) and I can tell you that all business is 'stinking', there is nothing fair anywhere and I've seen dozens of people over-promoted to the wrong jobs for the wrong reasons. All the cliches abound (shagging the boss being incredibly common) along with politically correct and 'one of the boys' promotions, etc. so I would say it's just life mate. Pity, eh?
However, some good people do make it through in spite of all that!
I too agree with Mr Bussell.
I think it boils down to the fact that you have to play the game and put yourself about a bit.
I mean, I can guess what a lot of producers will be thinking. "Aspiring writers should be glad we're even giving them the time of day."
And they're correct. Would I even dream of sending a design for a new car into Ford and expecting them to start making my car? Sure as f**k I wouldn't, not unless I had some serious bloody credentials and contacts. I don't see why comedy writing is substantially different.
And many people seem to think that a commission is the only outlet - it isn't, as Bushbaby demonstrates. Ultimately, a script is a performance animal, and it needs to breathe.
Business as in life is filled with incompetents and idiots, of course.
But really, for an unknown writer, I would have thought stuff needs to be accessible on the page, and fill certain well-known criteria as shown on Writersroom, to be considered for development by a production company. Surely that's a no-brainer.
There is a parallel in the music business. A well known songwriter can place a mediocre song with artists and still have a hit.
But if you're an unknown you need something brilliant to 'break through', a song that anybody could get a hit with.
Of course, that doesn't preclude you shagging Music Producers and Record Company Execs, etc. to get your songs listened to in the first place..
If I could have found anyone who wanted my body, I would've.. 
I forgot a crucial point the Vietnamese worked for the beeb
Quote: bushbaby @ January 7, 2008, 4:44 PMI forgot a crucial point the Vietnamese worked for the beeb
I assumed that. They employ a disproportionate number of non-English and minority groups.
Nothing wrong with a bit of postive discrimination of course, except everything..
I found this rather amusing, on the BBC jobs site:
Metadata Coordinator, DS
Ref 280851
Region London
Contract Type Attachment/Fixed Term
Job Category BBC Worldwide
Closing date for applications 7 January 2008
Job Description
This role is part of the BBC Worldwide Disability Scheme - you must have a disability which is recognised by Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) to apply. The Act states a disabled person is someone who has a "physical or mental impairment, which has a substantial and long term adverse effect on a person's ability to carry out normal day to day activities".
JOB DESCRIPTION : Metadata Co-Coordinator Project Kangaroo
12 month contract post
Quote: David Bussell @ January 7, 2008, 12:21 PMI've been eyeing this thread with a mind to weigh in for a while now.
I think it's a fascinating area of discussion as far as comedy writing goes, and there are valid arguments on both sides of the fence.
Certainly there are comedies that amount to pretty much nothing on the page. Take the Fast Show for instance. A man walks out of a potting shed and says "This week I have mostly been eating... sprouts." Hardly a recipe for hilarity in written form, but when performed, it seemed to strike a chord with a great many people.
The trouble, I think, is that so many fledgling writers imagine that their writing will be knock-down hilarious given the proper treatment, but too often that attitude is simply an excuse for flat writing.
Yes, there are examples of fine programmes that read very dull on the page (and the Royle Family is an excellent example of one) but for the most part, a great script simply works. And why is that? I have a theory.
Jokes.
There are so many scripts out there calling themselves comedies with barely a joke in them. I mean, tonnes. Lots and lots. And they get shit-canned again and again.
So what do the writers do?
They blame the reader. They act like its the reader's fault for not understanding the nuance of their work. They tell them it's not a sit-com, it's a 'dramady'. They say they don't like the set-up/punch of American comedy and want to go a different way. They don't do 'jokes'.
And sometimes, certainly with more established writers, they have a point. They aren't getting a fair deal. Their writing is too subtle on the page. There are shades of comedy that just aren't registering. So? Workshop it. Find people to perform in it. Better yet, do it yourself. If you really believe your dialogue is misunderstood, prove it. There are ways into comedy other than submitting unsolicited blueprints to strangers - you just have to fight harder to back up that self belief is all. Bushbaby has the right idea, getting her stuff performed - the next step is to put it in front of strangers and see if the laughs keep coming.
And if all that sounds like too much effort, and you want to carry on mailing out scripts and let that be the end of it, well, maybe you need to go back to basics. And write some jokes.
Good post!
I hate that 'I don't do JOKES' attitude. Then you're not a comedy writer. A joke isn't just 'Knock knock . . .'. It's a laugh. If you don't jokes, you don't do laughs.
Re: That Fast Show. I think that particular sketch probably wasn't even 'written' - it was probably Mark Williams arsing about, making the other laugh. That's why you can't look at stuff like that and compare it to sitcoms.
I still also think the Royles has jokes in it. 'I paid a quid for these underpants - I've got fifty pence worth stuck up my arse'. Yes, it has pauses, but it has some really nice jokes in it too.
Quote: bushbaby @ January 7, 2008, 1:59 PMCan someone tell me how he would understand a Lancashire comedy about a massage parlour and get the Lancs humour? Furthermore, that particular sitcom was sent back to me signed with an Asian name
What is Lancs humour? Does regional humour exist? I think the answer is no. Maybe country to country but comedy is comedy. Funny is funny.
There is no regional comedy nonsense. And don't say the Royle Family - it's not to everyone's tastes due to the slow style, not the type of jokes.
An Asian name? Right, there's loads of British-Asians doing comedy - good comedy. Lets not get silly.
Stop using 'He just doesn't get this type of comedy' as an excuse for your work not getting made. There's 1.5 million people in Lancs - it's not a big audience you're aiming for is it?
Quote: bushbaby @ January 7, 2008, 4:44 PMI forgot a crucial point the Vietnamese worked for the beeb
Right.
What next? He had a blue shirt on - that's why it got rejected?
Give over for god's sake. Next it'll be men and woman, and people with black hair.
"He's got black hair - he doesn't get the comedy".
It got rejected because you sent it to the Writer's Room. They're shit.
Quote: James Williams @ January 7, 2008, 5:24 PMI found this rather amusing, on the BBC jobs site:
Metadata Coordinator, DS
Ref 280851
Region London
Contract Type Attachment/Fixed Term
Job Category BBC Worldwide
Closing date for applications 7 January 2008
Job Description
This role is part of the BBC Worldwide Disability Scheme - you must have a disability which is recognised by Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) to apply. The Act states a disabled person is someone who has a "physical or mental impairment, which has a substantial and long term adverse effect on a person's ability to carry out normal day to day activities".
JOB DESCRIPTION : Metadata Co-Coordinator Project Kangaroo
12 month contract post
All very amusing - but it's really not the reason people on here aren't getting anywhere.
It's because producers don't like what they're reading.
The Royle Family has lots of great, 'proper gags' in it as well as all the character based humour.
I don't think that British commissioners don't like sitcoms with 'proper gags' in them. Look at the success of Not Going Out, that is an endless stream of gags. Then you have other shows that take the more 'real' feel like The Thick Of It but again they are still littered with great, funny, proper gags as well as all the humour derived from the situation and characters.
I personally like to have a fair few 'proper gags' in my sitcom scripts because I'm sick of all the 'cringe comedy' where there aren't any jokes just a bunch of people saying something weird and then REACTING. I like to have a range of humour from visual gags, to one-liners, to more character and situation based stuff, also I like to add a bit of satire where I can but not so that it overpowers the script, it just helps layer it.
By the way bushbaby that bit from your sitcom you posted on the previous page is a proper gag I feel, it has a proper set-up and punchline and is fairly funny.