Quote: Aaron @ January 9, 2008, 5:04 PMIt fits on every level.
Can you give an example?
Vista's a piece of shit. At least it looks good though, unlike...
unlike OS X? Which it is a copy of?
'Cos you've already paid out of the arse for the hardware.
you obviously haven't looked at the prices lately. Nevertheless, you haven't addressed the point that the full edition of the latest windows operating system costs as much as a new laptop. That is f**king outrageous. It's the OS for f**k sake!
http://tinyurl.com/3ceqmm - Apple Mac - £699
http://tinyurl.com/2pu523 - Sony Viao - £599
Noticing the specs on the over priced Sony are better... Priceless.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ January 9, 2008, 7:21 PMCan you give an example?
Toolbars, menus, buttons, general interface. I could go on, but quite frankly, it makes me feel ill to just think about the appearance of a Mac.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ January 9, 2008, 7:21 PMyou obviously haven't looked at the prices lately.
I can assure you that I have. So if you think the current prices are better/cheaper/whatever, as your post seems to imply, then that's my point proven.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ January 9, 2008, 7:21 PMNevertheless, you haven't addressed the point that the full edition of the latest windows operating system costs as much as a new laptop. That is f**king outrageous. It's the OS for f**k sake!
Firstly, I agree that it's a ridiculous price, and a shit piece of software. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that when I pointed out that Apple already raped you for the hardware - which Microsoft don't - then a Windows machine is still cheaper.
Oh, and a Windows machine you can actually upgrade. Unlike a stinking piece of shitty Apple hardware, which has to be bought outright and brand new every few years. 
Quote: Godot Taxis @ January 9, 2008, 7:21 PMunlike OS X? Which it is a copy of?
Yes, unlike OS X. And if it is a copy, then it's been greatly improved.
Although, it'd be quite a feat to get any worse...
Quote: Paul W @ January 9, 2008, 7:40 PMhttp://tinyurl.com/3ceqmm - Apple Mac - £699
http://tinyurl.com/2pu523 - Sony Viao - £599
Noticing the specs on the over priced Sony are better... Priceless.
And the Macbook doesn't even come with a DVD+/-RW drive! What is this, 1999? 
You guys are more evangelical than crazy christians. Do you have to convert everyone? Soon you'll be beheading flat screens on Al Jazeera
Look, there's no point in going on with this. The world of Apple computers you're talking about isn't the one I'm in. 'Can't upgrade?' My desktop has four HDs, 3 pci cards + a third party graphics card. It crashes twice a year - if at all and I have no anti-virus software. Many years ago I bought a dedicated slide scanner. I've never installed a driver for this item - I just plugged it in. I've upgraded the OS three times since I bought the slide scanner and it still works without installing any new drivers.
I find it interesting that you dismiss the windows os as 'a piece of shit' yet still maintain that the pc is superior to the mac. Are you saying the hardware's superior?
No, indeed. We're not going to agree. Evidently we have very different uses for our machines, which makes a lot of the comparisons relatively academic anyway. But just to answer your points...
No, I'm just saying that Vista is a piece of shit.
Not entirely, mind. It just should be cut down. And XP SP3, rather than a whole new OS of its own accord. Either way, it certainly doesn't warrant the already highlighted ridiculous price tag.
And hardware isn't inherently superior, but I can get a higher spec setup - non-Apple, nevermind the OS - for much cheaper than a lower spec Mac. Just as an example, when my girlfriend got her Macbook (against her better judgement, but alas studying Film & TV Production at university requires FCP), I compared prices. The same spec wasn't actually available in non-Mac form; it was all higher. But going by the closest I could find, I would have been able to buy two of that model and still had a bit left over for the same amount as her Macbook cost. That's including the Windows licences. Had I looked further, I suspect that a similar model without Windows pre-installed would have allowed me to get three.
Anyway, crashing is more to do with software and usage than the actual OS, but I'd just like to say that in the three years or so I've had it, the only time my laptop has ever crashed was when trying to watch QuickTime video. On the flip-side, my friends/acquaintances who do have Macs (or are forced to use them) report constant crashing and instability. So again, it really comes down to software and usage.
Oh, and no matter what OS you run, not having any anti-virus software is just plain reckless. Even most of the fan-iest Mac fanboys will tell you that. In my 11+ years of Internet usage, I've never had a virus or anything of the kind because I just don't go to those kinds of sites, or open those kinds of e-mails. But I'd still rather be safe than sorry.
I got a really nasty virus that needed me to format the harddrive and start again it crippled the system and was so difficult to remove it was easier to start from scratch. It was called "Norton" so beware guys. Comes in a yellow box.
Can't disagree with that one.
I get viruses but I use certain *cough cough* software which unfortunatly gets me the odd bit of Adware.
And I have norton (boy Aarons going to shout at me). But I merely keep it because I pretty much have the settings the way I want them and it's all pretty stable on my system.
And he reckons he's a Tech Support guy.
>_<
I'm not singing its praises... just saying it don't have a massive issue with it, partly because I know what not to go on.
I have Ad Aware 
This PC/Mac debate.... you might as well be arguing who's harder out of Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee.
Get back to work, ya slackers!
PS. Also, it was Bruce Lee.
Quote: Aaron @ January 10, 2008, 12:38 AMNo, indeed. We're not going to agree. Evidently we have very different uses for our machines, which makes a lot of the comparisons relatively academic anyway. But just to answer your points...
I'm not clear what you do on yours - I presume you write code?
And hardware isn't inherently superior, but I can get a higher spec setup - non-Apple, nevermind the OS - for much cheaper than a lower spec Mac. Just as an example, when my girlfriend got her Macbook (against her better judgement, but alas studying Film & TV Production at university requires FCP), I compared prices. The same spec wasn't actually available in non-Mac form; it was all higher. But going by the closest I could find, I would have been able to buy two of that model and still had a bit left over for the same amount as her Macbook cost. That's including the Windows licences. Had I looked further, I suspect that a similar model without Windows pre-installed would have allowed me to get three.
I wouldn't argue that. Obviously if cost is a factor, then the pc will always be cheaper because it is assembled from third party hardware and has a generic design. I was kind of comparing machines in terms of capability rather than a top-trumps-style specs. My girlfriend has a Toshiba laptop and it was cheaper than my powerbook. But is also made of plastic rather than aluminium and has some really nasty design touches like the DVD burner popping out on a plastic tray and a little plastic volume wheel etc. The Tosh's TFT panel's inferior in quality as well. None of these things bother her. A lot of her time is spent trouble-shooting the software and down-loading security, virus updates. I don't know if this is common to all pc laptops running xp or just to her, but I don't have to do it. Her computer also takes about two minutes to boot up. She didn't get any video-editing software or DVD authoring with her computer. I've looked at stuff she's downloaded free and it's not very good.
I wouldn't buy a macbook or an imac and i certainly wouldn't buy a computer without a DVD burner - I agree that is ridiculous and stingy. On the other hand putting a DVD burner in a pc seems a little bit pointless as (judging by posts from James, the slaggs etc.) making a DVD from your mini DV footage is quite difficult on a pc. This is where I came in, not posting a mac's-are-better-style post, just advising james to get a mac because it comes with integrated editing and DVD authoring software that is completely painless to use and is perfectly suited to amateur DVD creation without hassle, googling and posting questions on here. Let's not forget that apple pioneered home DVD creation, putting the first DVD burner into a home computer.
Anyway, crashing is more to do with software and usage than the actual OS, but I'd just like to say that in the three years or so I've had it, the only time my laptop has ever crashed was when trying to watch QuickTime video. On the flip-side, my friends/acquaintances who do have Macs (or are forced to use them) report constant crashing and instability. So again, it really comes down to software and usage.
Even the most hardened pc users admit that macs crash less frequently than pcs. You're out on a limb if you're maintaining the opposite. Compatability issues are easier to forsee on the mac platform because the hardware and OS (and many of the plug-ins) are both made by apple or sourced from a very small number of companies. Everyone knows that Microsoft's development is a joke. Look at I.E., for christ's sake.
Oh, and no matter what OS you run, not having any anti-virus software is just plain reckless. Even most of the fan-iest Mac fanboys will tell you that. In my 11+ years of Internet usage, I've never had a virus or anything of the kind because I just don't go to those kinds of sites, or open those kinds of e-mails. But I'd still rather be safe than sorry.
No. Aaron. No. It's not reckless, there are no mac viruses. Maybe it's because the mac's too shit and no-one can be bothered to make one.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ January 11, 2008, 12:29 AMI'm not clear what you do on yours - I presume you write code?
Code, download, record TV, play back TV, encode video, e-mail, general InterWeb-ness.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ January 11, 2008, 12:29 AMEven the most hardened pc users admit that macs crash less frequently than pcs. You're out on a limb if you're maintaining the opposite.
No, I'm just saying that that's my experience. As you say, there's less 'scope', if you will, for a Mac to crash 'cos half of the programs are made by the same company that makes the hardware and OS.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ January 11, 2008, 12:29 AMEveryone knows that Microsoft's development is a joke. Look at I.E., for christ's sake.
Not really. IE is, uhh, lacking, shall we say. Not two ways about that. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're "a joke", not by a long shot.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ January 11, 2008, 12:29 AMNo. Aaron. No. It's not reckless, there are no mac viruses.
Until this little gem, I was generally agreeing with you.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ January 11, 2008, 12:29 AMMaybe it's because the mac's too shit and no-one can be bothered to make one.
Not necessarily too shit as the reason, but the relatively miniscule user base I'm sure is the main factor in the equally relatively small number of Mac viruses.
Anyway...
I managed to exchange my DVD-cam for a mini-DV today in Argos and now all I need to do is get a Firewire ExpressCard for my laptop and the DV-Firewire cable. I was a little disturbed by the price of these ExpressCards (About £50) but I've seen some on Ebay for under £20, so that's not too bad.
Tiny little tapes!!