Quote: Matthew Stott @ April 25 2011, 10:01 PM BSTYeah, but that's one story, he's written quite a few! The whale one was also dodgy, though he's admitted that himself.
Yes, but my worry is that this series Moffat might tie himself in knots with a big story arc that becomes increasingly daft and incomprehensible. But I'm not one to prejudge!
Quote: Matthew Stott @ April 25 2011, 10:00 PM BSTthat's because it's supposed to be a mystery, with a resolution to come later.
Have you been watching this and Torchwood? How many mysteries and cunundrums and what not... and oh dear the silence. Just tell stories in the series like they used to do.
Quote: chipolata @ April 25 2011, 10:05 PM BSTYes, but my worry is that this series Moffat might tie himself in knots with a big story arc that becomes increasingly daft and incomprehensible. But I'm not one to prejudge!
He may well do, yeah. But I'd prefer not to sit watching thinking the worst about what might happen the whole time! 
Quote: Griff @ April 25 2011, 10:01 PM BSTSo who killed the chauffeur in The Big Sleep then?
(I'm kidding. I agree, Moffat's storylines don't hold up to scrutiny, but compared to RTD's trailer-moment handwaving they're a miracle of logic and clarity.)
True. But as you say... 
Quote: Matthew Stott @ April 25 2011, 10:07 PM BSTHe may well do, yeah. But I'd prefer not to sit watching thinking the worst about what might happen the whole time!
Yes, but a viewer shouldn't have those doubts in their mind. If they have, the storyteller is doing something wrong.
Quote: Griff @ April 25 2011, 10:06 PM BSTNo, we know more than him about River. Because of this contraflow time-stream nonsense. Each time he meets her, he knows less (until one day he won't recognise her) while we know more. (Because we've seen the adventures his future self has with her. Or something.)
But that's not true, is it? In the order of stories we've seen, what do we know more about River than he does? He knows she's someone from his future, she's in prison, and she he knows when she dies; same as us! It's in Rivers timestream that he knows less and less as she moves forward, but we're following the story through at the same time as him.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ April 25 2011, 10:05 PM BSTWhat would us knowing more than The Doctor make something balderdash? And actually, we don't know more than him about River, do we? We know the same.
It seems like you're trying to make me 'trip up' in some way. Which isn't very nice, Marc!
No, not at all Matthew. I just want to know. Paradoxes left right and centre seemed bollox to me and I am a big fan of M and DW.
Quote: chipolata @ April 25 2011, 10:09 PM BSTYes, but a viewer shouldn't have those doubts in their mind.
Not all of us do!
Quote: Matthew Stott @ April 25 2011, 10:09 PM BSTBut that's not true, is it? In the order of stories we've seen, what do we know more about River than he does? He knows she's someone from his future, she's in prison, and she he knows when she dies; same as us! It's in Rivers timestream that he knows less and less as she moves forward, but we're following the story through at the same time as him.
What?
Quote: Griff @ April 25 2011, 10:06 PM BSTNo, we know more than The Doctor does about River. Because of this contraflow time-stream nonsense. Each time he meets her, he knows less (until one day he won't recognise her) while we know more. (Because we've seen the adventures his future self has with her. Or something. Although why the River episodes should be picked out from S5 as stuff he doesn't know about, while obviously he remembers everything else, baffles me.)
You are not alone, and I am getting time travelled confused keeping up with this thread with the rapidity of posting
Quote: Matthew Stott @ April 25 2011, 10:09 PM BSTBut that's not true, is it? In the order of stories we've seen, what do we know more about River than he does? He knows she's someone from his future, she's in prison, and she he knows when she dies; same as us! It's in Rivers timestream that he knows less and less as she moves forward, but we're following the story through at the same time as him.
But WE know he knows less that WE do. It makes no sense man.
Quote: chipolata @ April 25 2011, 10:10 PM BSTWhat?
What about that didn't you understand?
Quote: Marc P @ April 25 2011, 10:13 PM BSTBut WE know he knows less that WE do. It makes no sense man.
No, he does NOT know less than us, what doesn't he know about River that we currently do? Nothing.
Quote: Griff @ April 25 2011, 10:14 PM BSTDo you know, you might be right.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ April 25 2011, 10:15 PM BSTNo, he does NOT know less than us, what doesn't he know about River that we currently do? Nothing.
But why - according to her big 
speech by the door - does he know less and less about her every time they meet?
Quote: Matthew Stott @ April 25 2011, 10:15 PM BSTNo, he does NOT know less than us, what doesn't he know about River that we currently do? Nothing.
Matthew read your original post about the fact that at some time he will meet her and not know who she is and come back with that observation. It's a paradox wrapped in a paradox which in TT terms is known as a Bolladox.