? I wasn't trying to start a terf war. * Looks up terf. The use of 'them' doesn't always convey the inclusion of both genders though, it's more of a cop out use for convenience, in practice. Yes it's far more convenient to use like most informal English but formally including both genders is or was once thought to be politely inclusive with no doubts or confusion, especially when a potential female president is in context.
Well let's hope so!
Quote: zooo @ 30th May 2022, 2:15 PMYou really do live in an imaginary world don't you?
Yes, in the sense that I naively imagine others to see the same humour as I do in what I write, I obviously do. But you can't judge how things are interpreted in print as many have discovered.
If anyone has any suggestions on how I can further smooth the waters, just let me know and in characteristic fashion I will oblige.
Quote: zooo @ 30th May 2022, 12:15 PMOr just "them". One simple word and it includes everyone.
Especially seeing as he said "their" two words later in the sentence.
Not at all. "Them" would not have been correct as that is plural and therefore indicates more than one person. But clearly (or at least hopefully) there would only be one president. Therefore "him/her" is the only correct way of expressing a situation where the gender of one person is unknown. However, having thus established that there is more than one possibility as to the identity of the prospective president but we don't know which one, it pluralises the options and the use of "their" becomes appropriate.
They/them is fine for singular these days. Has been for decades. 
I found a wallet in the waiting room, I'd better hand it in so they can get it back!
Someone just cut me up on the motorway, I'll catch up to them and do an angry light flash. That'll teach 'em.
I'm busy, if someone calls me tell them I will call them back.
And so on.
Btw, I wasn't saying Ohmygod!!1 you can't say him/her!!, I was merely pointing out an easier and quicker alternative.
Quote: zooo @ 30th May 2022, 10:40 PMThey/them is fine for singular these days. Has been for decades.
It has but only for the convenience of brevity. It drives some purists nuts because it's not linguistically pure. It may fit in a sense of him/her = they but in a purely literal way it SHOULD be used to denote plural not singular. It's been ramroaded into established usage by the Americans mainly who've bent our language into all kinds of unorthodox shapes and uses and was brought in to avoid the use of him when the gender of the subject wasn't known, not as an alternative for him/her, him or her, but was naturally preferred for the same ease of use reasons when 'she' became more prevalent in work and social hierarchies. And of course the feminists cemented it usage, but many have gone beyond that now and use the term her when the gender isn't known. Just as him was once used.
Without wishing to extend this debate further, I would just say that the examples that Zooo quotes would be verbal. There is a difference between what tends to be accepted in everyday speech and what is correct when put in writing. For example one may, on occasions, use a split infinitive in speech (albeit perhaps unconsciously) whereas one would normally avoid doing so in writing. The same with ending a sentence with a preposition, which, as Churchill (allegedly) once said, is "something up with which I will not put".
Them/they is a bit annoying and can be confusing.
But the young'uns seem to have embraced it, so I guess it's here to stay.
Yes I use it for informal chat like this but if I was addressing someone formally in writing such as email or text I tend to think it's more polite to recognise both genders as in him/her and the little extra effort should be shown. In spoken English yes it's so much easier to say them but it is an imperfect solution to a long standing problem, at least in English.
Sorry - lines crossed I think.
I was talking about the 'preferred pronoun' side of things - he/sh'e who preferred to called 'they'.
A think the 'sloppy English' side of things couldn't matter less, unless you're writing a legal document or something.
I think the over riding factor in most of the problems incurred on these pages is that most of the posters are white middle aged men with more than a toe in the waters interest in 1970s comedy.
Whats more so much has changed in our world that we have gone from Alan to Rigsby and it gets more evident with some posts.
I openly admit to making the transition and now most peole under 30 sound like Alan to me.
Well, I for one don't know the rules anymore.
Alan to Rigsby - brilliant!