Sadly, protests rarely achieve anything.
I'm coming clean. Page 3
Genuinely shocked by this...
Quote: fopdoodle @ 8th April 2017, 12:19 PMI know . . . but the aid should have included that, though pointless as not in their culture. All I was pointing out was that so much suffering could be avoided if people didn't breed like rabbits, however harsh that sounds, but is still a fact.
The reality of high infant mortality rates in most of the poor nations of the world (which don't forget in the past would have included our ancestors) means that people have more children in the hope that at least some are still around when they are too old to support themselves. Unlike us they cannot just assume their 2.4 children will make it to maturity.
Can i suggest you watch the brilliant late professor Hans Rosling's programme 'Don't Panic - The Truth about Population' -
http://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-population/
Quote: zooo @ 7th April 2017, 9:45 PMAnd if there's one thing you can say about those on the right, it's that they never do any of that!
There's plenty of arseholes on both sides.
Far more of that kind of intolerance and unacceptance on the left, though.
I know you do love to think that. But it depends who you ask and where you look.
Sometimes it's comparing intolerance like 'I can't be a Tory publicly and not get teased by left wing nutjobs' and intolerance like 'I can't mention I'm gay online without getting thousands of violent death threats from right wing nutjobs.'
Quote: zooo @ 8th April 2017, 2:00 PMI know you do love to think that. But it depends who you ask and where you look.
Sometimes it's comparing intolerance like 'I can't be a Tory publicly and not get teased by left wing nutjobs' and intolerance like 'I can't mention I'm gay online with getting thousands of violent death threats from right wing nutjobs.'
Yes. That.
Quote: Davida Grimes @ 8th April 2017, 11:19 AMBut, I think what fopdoodle was saying is that all of the people who were allowed to work normal people jobs, like doctors, and nurses, factory workers, office workers etc. who were previously allowed to work in any country in the EU without hassle, are now getting screwed over, and I guess are going to have to move back to their countries of origin (including all UK citizens working in other EU countries). That's the understanding I've got. But I could be way off. I don't know much about the EU.
That is the scaremongering from remain campaigns, yes. But it's not going to happen.
Quote: playfull @ 8th April 2017, 1:33 PMGenuinely shocked by this...
The reality of high infant mortality rates in most of the poor nations of the world (which don't forget in the past would have included our ancestors) means that people have more children in the hope that at least some are still around when they are too old to support themselves. Unlike us they cannot just assume their 2.4 children will make it to maturity.
Can i suggest you watch the brilliant late professor Hans Rosling's programme 'Don't Panic - The Truth about Population' -http://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-population/
I'm going to watch this, right now in fact. I know I'm underinformed on the issue, and it looks interesting.
I thought about the idea of enough children so that one/some of them will be around to care for you when you get old (in populations/societies without the luxury(?) of being able to send elderly parents off to care homes, or hire private caregivers). I hadn't thought about infant mortality though. And I have no sense of population statistics and what they really mean. Sounds like this guy Rosling is a statistician, so should be a good one for me to get a better understanding of what's going on population-wise in the world, and what it all adds up to.
Thanks for the link.
Quote: zooo @ 8th April 2017, 2:00 PMI know you do love to think that. But it depends who you ask and where you look.
Looking at actual politics, mainly!
Quote: zooo @ 8th April 2017, 2:00 PM'I can't mention I'm gay online without getting thousands of violent death threats from right wing nutjobs.'
That's not right wing, that's socially illiberal and intolerant. Just as prone to be on the left as the right, in Britain at least.
This thread started with a post about Brexit and Trump. English and American politics. So we're talking about both.
And I imagine we're talking about left wing and right wing as most people understand it. ie generalising. Your personal definitions of left and right wing can get a bit complicated! I seem to remember you once making the point that Hitler was quite left wing technically? (Or I could be remembering that wrong.)
Anyway, DaButt mentioned that the left often resort to "insults, fearmongering and personal attacks". And I was saying that insults and personal attacks from people like homophobes, misogynists, xenophobes etc (what most people think of as extreme right wing views) is practically what makes up half the internet!
Quote: Kenneth @ 8th April 2017, 7:28 AMWhat were the main reasons for people choosing Brexit? Stop the creeping Islamization of Britain? Escape from non-elected officials in Brussels making detrimental rules? Or were there other reasons?
All sorts. The former wasn't an issue (although wider issues of immigration were key), whilst the latter was instrumental.
Quote: zooo @ 8th April 2017, 2:32 PMThis thread started with a post about Brexit and Trump. English and American politics. So we're talking about both.
Foolish to do so in the same breath though. They're very, very different.
Quote: zooo @ 8th April 2017, 2:32 PMYour personal accurate definitions of left and right wing can get a bit complicated! I seem to remember you once making the point that Hitler was quite left wing technically?
People get lazy. I am a stickler for accuracy.
Quote: fopdoodle @ 8th April 2017, 1:33 PMSadly, protests rarely achieve anything.
Maybe 'rarely' is right. But their definitely not worthless tools for bringing about social change. Rosa Parks? and Martin Luther King Jr? They achieved something. A very big something. And more recently, I think the Women's March was a fairly successful protest getting accross a message of unification, embracing differences, empowering the disempowered, and the massive turn-out certainly sent a message to Trump that thousands upon thousands of people would much rather choose to unite and embrace differences and show support one another no matter what their sexual orientation/gender identity/race/religion/ethnicity/political views/mental health statuses/disabilities etc. are, than go to something like his inauguration speech, which had a pitifully small turnout.
There are also loads of small protests and things like that on the state and city level that really do have a big impact on shaping state laws. Here in Oregon we have lot of laws that benefit a lot of people. Just last week our can/bottle deposit went up from 5 to 10 cents, which both doubles the daily incomes of can-gathering homeless people, and puts loads of money into our state education fund. Local activism here has also led to a plan to raise the minimum wage from under 10$ an hour to 15$ an hour bit by bit over the next decade, which will HOPEFULLY make it slightly less impossible to survive and raise a family on a minimum wage job (don't know if it will quite work out, but I think it will do more good than harm, in the end). The steps to get those laws made and enacted were largely taken by members of the public who not only cared, but did something about it.
This is just a thought (and please tell me to shut up about America if I'm getting annoying. Or shut up in general because I'm crazy and haven't slept in....uhh, 74 hours?) Maybe what might help keep the country afloat for the next four years will be local/state politics. States have a lot of autonomy when it comes to creating new legislation, and budgeting etc. And there's a fair amount of grey area when federal law conflict with state law. For instance, recreational marijuana is legal for anyone over 21 in Oregon, but it's illegal across the board federally. But it's not like the feds are hanging around in Oregon trying to catch people for smoking pot. That would be silly. So we get to largely disregard certain federal laws and do things the way we vote/choose to. So in the marijuana case, we have laws like, no smoking weed in public places, no driving stoned, there's a 5 plant max for anyone who wants to grow their own, you have to show your ID at the pot shop to be served, and distributing on the black market is still illegal. In the first year of pot being legalized recreationally we made over one billion dollars in weed tax that went straight into the state's general fund! (which resulted in a surplus, and everyone in the state got a kickback at tax time). Not bad eh? I don't smoke, but I voted in favor of it. Seemed like a good idea, and it seems like it has been. A lot fewer people in prison now because of it, too, which is quite a feat here in the US. Anyhow, I think maybe it's at the city/state level where people can make a difference right now, and have a better chance not getting completely f**ked over. Trump is too big a monster. And defeating the monster just spawns another monster to take his place, ad infinitum (or ad 15um). Not to say people shouldn't stop trying to keep Trump in check whenever possible, and people of course have a right to express their opinions about him. It's just seems like taking on Trump is much more of a lost cause than focusing on local politics. Though, of course there's the very real chance that Trump and his pals will do something so reckless and disastrous, that can't be avoided or mended by having solid local policies. I don't know what's going to happen. It's overwhelming to even think about most of the time.
I had to unfollow Graham Linehan on twitter because he posts SO many links to stories about all of the awful political things going on in America. And I know I should stay informed, but it was making me crazy. In the not fun way.
I unfollowed a lot of people who post constant political stuff on Twitter too, even though I agree with them. Twitter is supposed to be my happy place!
Quote: Aaron @ 8th April 2017, 3:10 PMAll sorts. The former wasn't an issue (although wider issues of immigration were key), whilst the latter was instrumental.
Foolish to do so in the same breath though. They're very, very different.
People get lazy. I am a stickler for accuracy.
I'm happy for you that your so convinced of your own infallibility...woops, I meant, accuracy. 
People do get lazy, you're right. Which just maybe sometimes can lead to some people (not naming any names) to settle into rigid viewpoints and a loss of the cognitive flexibility to see value in those that aren't their own.
Maybe Brexit and Trump is too much for one thread. Maybe we should have a separate one for each? They are certainly different issues, but they do have undeniable similarities, links, and overlaps. We've got two pretty wealthy, powerful, English speaking, democratic (well you have your Queen, but whatever) countries, that happen to be inextricably linked historically, and have developed in very similar ways since the American revolution, and both countries happen to reach a tipping point in the same year politically with a near exact 50/50% split in opinion regarding issues who should be allowed to run the country, how should they do it, and should what should be done (or not done) to keep foreigners from entering our respective countries. Of course there's more to Brexit than that, and there's more to the Trump situation than that. But I think broadly speaking, we're all speaking about the same thing here.
If you want to nix the Trump talk or have a separate thread for it, that's fine with me. I really don't care.
Quote: Davida Grimes @ 8th April 2017, 3:48 PMI'm happy for you that your so convinced of your own infallibility...woops, I meant, accuracy.
you're*