Quote: beaky @ 8th April 2017, 10:00 AMI think that anyone who voted for Brexit has a screw loose.
I think those that did perhaps gave little or no thought for Brits who work & live in Europe, or Europeans who work and live here.
I'm coming clean. Page 2
Yeah, it'd be Pence. There's a whole line of succession, even if we manage to successfully impeach Trump or he gets assassinated or dies of a heart attack or whatever...then we're stuck with Mike Pence, who scares me as much, if not more, than Trump, and if by some miracle we're able to get Pence out of the whitehouse we're left the republican speaker of the house Paul Ryan, which would still be a shit show. Then we've got 7 more nut jobs to get rid of before we hit the first Dem in the succession, and he's the effing Secretary of Agriculture. Actually, having just googled the guy, he's about to be replaced with another nutjob (who is incidentally, another republican.
I'm not intending imply that all republicans are nutjobs, but I get the sense that this one definitely is.) (for the record, I'm not affiliated with any political party. and no I did not vote for Trump. I was on the Bernie bandwagon until it crashed and burned.). In the entire 15 man line of succession there is just the one lone Dem...who is soon getting booted. Getting rid of Trump sounds lovely and all. But if it happens (which it may well do.) I don't know that we'll be in much better shape. I think maybe best case scenario, Trump dies or gets impeached (which is already fairly unlikely), then Pence does the same (even more unlikely), then we've got Paul Ryan, who I loathe, but at least a) is an politician, and at least seems to grasp kind of how the government works, and b) is considerably less terrifying than Trump and Pence. The "best case scenario" I'm describing (which still sounds like it would be awful), seems very unlikely to actually come to pass, though. It's going to be a rough four years. 
Quote: zooo @ 8th April 2017, 9:31 AMThere is no such thing as 'off topic' when we're in threads in the General Discussion section. Only in the threads in the Comedy forums. So don't worry about it!
Ah, good to know. I'm shit at figuring out rules to things like this.
Quote: fopdoodle @ 8th April 2017, 10:07 AMI think those that did perhaps gave little or no thought for brits that work & live in Europe, or Europeans who work and live here.
Which is the minority, surely? I wouldn't like Australia to join an Asian Union and have non-elected bureaucrats in Indonesia or China making rules for me (even if it meant less faffing about with visas). But perhaps that's false equivalence, as Berlin, Bussell et al are hardly Jakarta and Beijing. Nevertheless, if the the EU was making irksome rules, couldn't Britain have negotiated for a better deal? Or was it all or nothing?
Quote: Davida Grimes @ 8th April 2017, 10:20 AMYeah, it'd be Pence, who scares me as much, if not more, than Trump
I don't presume to know any more than any american citizen about these people as all I glean is from what I hear/see on the news rather than living it day to day, but crikey . . . what a line up!
Seems to me it was like choosing between someone who was going to mug you in the street or burgle (sorry, burglarise) your house!
Obama at least seemed to have morals and his head screwed on, unlike Bush who was another loose cannon - but I think he was perhaps humble enough to listen to his advisors.
It's all about damage limitation, and all I want is for everyone to be able to live without unnecessary fear. There will always be madmen running other countries and committing unspeakable crimes against their own for their own gain, but if a leader of another wants to try to help these people, they can't risk their own by storming in, whatever the motive, unless they at least justify by giving them refuge (as refugees) as a result.
I think he summed up his whole attitude by using the words "Because I'm President, and you're not". Add "ne ne ne ne ne" to that and you have a toddler in the playground, which is, in effect what this guy really is.
Quote: Kenneth @ 8th April 2017, 10:38 AMWhich is the minority, surely? I wouldn't like Australia to join an Asian Union and have non-elected bureaucrats in Indonesia or China making rules for me (even if it meant less faffing about with visas). But perhaps that's false equivalence, as Berlin, Bussell et al are hardly Jakarta and Beijing. Nevertheless, if the the EU was making irksome rules, couldn't Britain have negotiated for a better deal? Or was it all or nothing?
Wait, so citizens from other countries were/are allowed to work and make policies for your government because of being in the EU? We have a law in the US so that you can't become president (and probably maybe other government positions) if you were not born in the US (being a naturalized citizen is not good enough). Which makes some sort of sense to me, I suppose. I really don't care where a person was born, and don't have much of a sense of patriotism...
But, I think what fopdoodle was saying is that all of the people who were allowed to work normal people jobs, like doctors, and nurses, factory workers, office workers etc. who were previously allowed to work in any country in the EU without hassle, are now getting screwed over, and I guess are going to have to move back to their countries of origin (including all UK citizens working in other EU countries). That's the understanding I've got. But I could be way off. I don't know much about the EU. I feel for anyone who had a life and career in the UK (or again, UK people working in EU countries) I guess getting kicked out and sent "home" where they'll have to start their lives over from scratch in a lot of ways. Is that what you were talking about, fopdoodle? If so, I think Kenneth might be just the kind of person you were referring to re: not giving those people's situations much thought. (No offense meant Kenneth.)
I said I was going to go to bed...I need to do that. But it's morning already, so I kind of don't see the point. Ah, whatever.
Many people voted to exit the EU as they are not so much against immigrants, more that immigrants stream in and get free houses and employment which the nationals don't always, so there is competition.
Fair enough if they are fleeing from a country that we have a hand in making worse, but it seems unfair to our own when others seem to take advantage of it, especially as they have more children in the knowledge they will be paid for by others.
I lost my job, my house, and a life I had spent 12 years cultivating, and moved to London 6 years ago spending all my accumulated assets on accommodation and looking for work there, but even though I failed given the number of foreign residents in jobs I could have had, I never became remotely racist, because, if you had the option of moving to a better country for a better life and could . . . wouldn't everyone?
The only thing I really object to strongly is anyone having more kids they can't pay for themselves. It is selfish beyond belief, and going way back to 'bandaid' with Bob Geldof - named as such as it was only a sticking plaster - all I could think at the time was the fact that in that culture, the awful suffering came from having babies they could little afford to feed anyway.
There are far too many people in the world as it is, which is part of the reason consumerism is destroying it - along with dictators who are under the illusion (or delusion) they can somehow fix it.
Quote: fopdoodle @ 8th April 2017, 11:55 AMThe only thing I really object to strongly is anyone having more kids they can't pay for themselves. It is selfish beyond belief, and going way back to 'bandaid' with Bob Geldof - named as such as it was only a sticking plaster - all I could think at the time was the fact that in that culture, the awful suffering came from having babies they could little afford to feed anyway.
I don't think those people exactly have easy access to free birth control.
Quote: zooo @ 8th April 2017, 12:03 PMI don't think those people exactly have easy access to free birth control.
I know . . . but the aid should have included that, though pointless as not in their culture. All I was pointing out was that so much suffering could be avoided if people didn't breed like rabbits, however harsh that sounds, but is still a fact.
Quote: beaky @ 8th April 2017, 10:00 AMI think that anyone who voted for Brexit has a screw loose.
Right, for that, I'm not watching The Rebel.
I don't blame those that voted to leave, nor those that voted for Trump.
It doesn't make them right, though.
In both cases there was a whole raft of people left behind by an increasingly warped system - people struggling to survive under a crisis that wasn't of their making.
As Lord Frankie of Boyle would say "IT WAS THE FUCKING BANKS!"
Flailing round for something to blame they chose the nearest thing - the EU.
And they wouldn't even have latched onto that if the Tories hadn't invented the need for a referendum in the misguided hope it would mend the rifts in their party.
As ever, the right, knowing an angry mob when they see it, leapt in and fanned the flames.
They did this of course to make their lives easier, not the lives of those who voted with them.
They couldn't give a f**k about you or I.
So watch employment law, social care, health and the environment take a back seat whilst the rich get richer.
But as I say, I don't blame the voters.
I don' even blame the right - that would be like telling a vulture off for feeding on a rotten carcass..
The left, however, failed us miserably.
Their failure to mobilise the working class - those with the most to lose - concentrating instead on student-union level politicking, is nothing short of disgraceful.
Quote: fopdoodle @ 8th April 2017, 12:19 PMI know . . . but the aid should have included that, though pointless as not in their culture. All I was pointing out was that so much suffering could be avoided if people didn't breed like rabbits, however harsh that sounds, but is still a fact.
I'm with you on all that for the most part, but I think there are cultural aspects (and financial) that make solving the problem definitely not just a matter of handing out free condoms to everyone (I know that's not what you're suggesting, though). Most of my american friends are Mexican, and it's just so deeply rooted in their culture (and many cultures) to have lots of kids. More kids means more mouths to feed, but it also means more people working and providing much needed income and help with growing food, or tending animals, or cooking food to sell, or whatever it is they happen to be doing for a living to support the family. It's a bit paradoxical, because surely they'd need a lot less money if they didn't have so many mouths to feed, but it's been that way for generations, and I don't think you can somehow persuade an entire culture to give up well...such a big part of their culture! (can't think of a better way of saying that).
Definitely too many humans on this planet though. We could always give genocide or nuclear war or sterilization programs etc. another go...but let's not. I don't know what an efficient solution would be. I think something that's been engrained in a society for generations probably won't have an efficient solution. Might take a while, and have a slow trajectory as far as making progress toward curbing overpopulation, but I figure education and women's rights are probably key factors. I don't know.
Quote: Lazzard @ 8th April 2017, 12:27 PMI don't blame those that voted to leave, nor those that voted for Trump.
I don' even blame the right - that would be like telling a vulture off for feeding on a rotten carcass..
Democracy is farcical if it is based on blatant lies. The referendum 'victory' was achieved using at best, misleading information, but at worst, criminal deception. So if it was only 'advisory' I still fail to see how it even went ahead, but then we live in illogical times now and are on a runaway train that nobody seems to know or even care how to stop.
Getting a male birth-control pill made readily available to people would be nice too. Just sayin'. The most recent news I heard about the recent research along those lines was of a kind of pill that you don't take every day. You take it either right before doing-the-do, or shortly after, and it supposedly doesn't have any lasting effects on fertility, and I don't remember mention of any side-effects. I only heard about it on a brief radio programme a while back so I'm probably missing or getting some of the details wrong.
Quote: Lazzard @ 8th April 2017, 12:27 PMI don't blame those that voted to leave, nor those that voted for Trump.
It doesn't make them right, though.
In both cases there was a whole raft of people left behind by an increasingly warped system - people struggling to survive under a crisis that wasn't of their making.
As Lord Frankie of Boyle would say "IT WAS THE FUCKING BANKS!"
Flailing round for something to blame they chose the nearest thing - the EU.
And they wouldn't even have latched onto that if the Tories hadn't invented the need for a referendum in the misguided hope it would mend the rifts in their party.
As ever, the right, knowing an angry mob when they see it, leapt in and fanned the flames.
They did this of course to make their lives easier, not the lives of those who voted with them.
They couldn't give a f**k about you or I.
So watch employment law, social care, health and the environment take a back seat whilst the rich get richer.
But as I say, I don't blame the voters.
I don' even blame the right - that would be like telling a vulture off for feeding on a rotten carcass..
The left, however, failed us miserably.
Their failure to mobilise the working class - those with the most to lose - concentrating instead on student-union level politicking, is nothing short of disgraceful.
THAT!
Quote: fopdoodle @ 8th April 2017, 12:43 PMDemocracy is farcical if it is based on blatant lies. The referendum 'victory' was achieved using at best, misleading information, but at worst, criminal deception. So if it was only 'advisory' I still fail to see how it even went ahead, but then we live in illogical times now and are on a runaway train that nobody seems to know or even care how to stop.
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I think people care. All of us in this discussion care...but what are we doing about it? Probably very little. I, personally, not only don't know WHAT to do to help the situation. And if I did know what to do, I'm not sure I'm in a position as far as stability and availability of time and resources in my own life to be able to be volunteering or advocating or going to protests, or writing letters to congressmen, or calling my representatives, or whatever it is I'm supposed to be doing. I suppose that makes me part of the problem. Or at least definitely not a part of a potential solution. But I'm at a loss.