The distrust comes from the amount of 'no details have been worked out yet' I see everywhere in regard to what the real consequences and changes will be / mean if we opt out.
The government, much like the actress said to the bishop, wouldn't know what to do with it if they got it. There lies the unease.
At least with Cameron & Corbyn we get an opportunity to chuck them out every 4 years.
With the polititions of the EU we get no such choice; they seem like puppets of the bureaucrats, like "Yes Minister" only more so.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is a website which claims to provide evidence-based impartial information about the EU.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shandonbelle, it looks as if you (or at least your kids) can be both in and out. As Irish citizens, they would still be EU citizens.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I guess that all those born after the UK joined the common market (and thence the EU), which is most of you, will feel very insecure about what happens after Brexit, whereas the older people, those who knew the UK before the common market & EU, know that the UK can 'do it' itself. Come what may.
If we stay in, the UK will eventually be absorbed into a federal united-states of Europe, despite Cameron's recent negotiations. And it won't be federal like the USA, more like what the USSR was.
Quote: Aaron @ 26th March 2016, 1:26 PM GMTQuite obviously complete nonsense. Neither pensioners living over there nor foreign nationals working here would be compelled to move. It would be of advantage to neither side.
Besides, the largest foreign contingents of NHS staff are from far outside the EU's borders.
Obvious to those who understand it. I thought it was being bandied about as a possibility but with no concrete evidence so it's making people nervous and leading to speculation.
Quote: Shandonbelle @ 26th March 2016, 3:28 PM GMTThe distrust comes from the amount of 'no details have been worked out yet' I see everywhere in regard to what the real consequences and changes will be / mean if we opt out.
This explains what I was trying to say
Quote: Shandonbelle @ 26th March 2016, 3:28 PM GMTThe distrust comes from the amount of 'no details have been worked out yet' I see everywhere in regard to what the real consequences and changes will be / mean if we opt out.
The trouble is, by an equal measure we have no idea what the future holds if we stay in. The EU is ever declining in world trade - quite apart from the shambolic mess of the eurozone - and faces a huge number of questions in its imminent future. Not to mention the very timely issues of free movement, border control, immigration and security. We have no more idea how the EU will look in 5 years time than we do an independent UK. But we DO know that an independent UK will be shaped by the vision of the politicians that we elect.
Thus with such unknowns on either side, the question must come down to how you feel on principle: do you want to be part of an independent nation, or a wider grouping of countries with common laws etc?
Personally, I'm all for having close links with other countries, friendly trade, even some common standards and regulations to facilitate that trade and co-operation between our nations, but I don't think that politicians appointed by other politicians, nor politicians elected in countries with wildly different histories, societies, attitudes, ethos(es?) and ways of life should have any part in making our laws.
(Plus the EU is a corrupt corporatist racket.)
What is Cameron so afraid of?
Surely he could do a TV debate and just answer questions honestly as conjecture is acceptable to back up his claims in the leaflet as no-one knows for sure what the consequences of leaving the EU would actually be.
But avoiding debate just raises more questions. What is he hiding? Is there some sort of corruption or deals with other countries we are not privy to? Are his intentions disingenuous?
Maybe leaving would just be too much work and far too costly (reason I didn't want an independent Scotland) but why avoid stating such concerns in a debate?
If it ain't broke, why fix it I guess. The decor of #10 was acceptable when he went in, so why change it?
Cameron is actually a pretty lousy debater, he only looks ok because Corbyn can barely read from his own notes.
Also he is heading up a phenomenally weak party that is riven with division. There is a very real chance that he'll end up having to form a coalition if enough of his party reject him over Europe.
So any Brexiter would shred him. And he's not going up against anyone Boris and Farage maybe a couple of shits. But they're also charming, charismatic shits with very little constituency to keep happy.
It would be a wonderful carcrash to watch though.
Quote: sootyj @ 13th May 2016, 12:41 PM BSTCameron is actually a pretty lousy debater.
It would be a wonderful carcrash to watch though.
All I reckon is that we would have a lot more respect for, and faith in him if he had a bigger pair of bollocks. And to be perfectly honest, they go at it all the time in house of commons, so what's the big difference?
Even if they did shred him to pieces - at least he wouldn't be seen as shifty and evasive as with the whole inheritance and tax debacle.
Nobody wants a shirker as the boss.
Still undecided? Watch Brexit the Movie. http://www.brexitthemovie.com/
Quote: fopdoodle @ 13th May 2016, 1:05 PM BSTAll I reckon is that we would have a lot more respect for, and faith in him if he had a bigger pair of bollocks. And to be perfectly honest, they go at it all the time in house of commons, so what's the big difference?
Even if they did shred him to pieces - at least he wouldn't be seen as shifty and evasive as with the whole inheritance and tax debacle.
Nobody wants a shirker as the boss.
For God's sake don't conjure up the thought/vision of his bollocks!
I had forgotten about this topic when I created the other one, so it might be best to just copy the relevant messages here and cease using the other one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BCG Forum software doesn't have a voting mechanism, so I've implemented an anonymous opinion poll mechanism on my own website. 
~~~~~~~~
In a poll on my old school friends forum a similar opinion poll, about whether the UK should leave the EU, is showing a slight preference for leaving the EU. But then all members there are oldsters around my age and we remember what it was like before the UK joined the EEC (Common Market) & thence the EU
Most of you members of BCG here are young (compared to us) and never knew the UK without the EU, and probably fear the unknown, so I thought it would be interesing to do an opinion poll here too, if the Moderators are willing.
This opinion poll is set out with the same question as will be on the Referendum Ballot paper on the 23rd June, with the same answers, plus a "I don't know yet" answer {which will not be on the real referendum}. So this opinion poll will be good practice for the real referendum which is fast approaching.
The link to the opinion poll page is: http://www.datahighways.net/voting/vote.asp
When you have voted the site will shortly thereafter display the current results.
Since you can only vote once, you can afterwards just go straight to the results display with this link: http://www.datahighways.net/voting/result.asp
~~~~~~
I couldn't preserve anonymity and also give the ability to change your mind, so I will probably wipe out the first poll results and restart it about 10 days before the actual referendum, to give you a chance for a different vote as we approach the real referendum.
<3 <3 <3
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Meanwhile this referendum is likely to be determined by which group is detected by the public as having the LEAST lies and exaggerations in their claims.
The BBC attempts to ascertain which are fibs and which are truth and their opinions are published here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388 and here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36261966
Read it if you have been actually believing what the polititions have been saying.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And did you know that Parliament had a committee on the possible effects of leaving the EU which was supposed to guide the voters but the report was not touted to the population. It takes effort to search for the report.
I've found it but not read all of it yet.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmfaff/545/545.pdf
And their conclusion:
The referendum on membership of the EU offers the UK a once-in-a-generation opportunity to assess critically its role in the world today, and to decide what kind of foreign policy actor it seeks to become in future. Inevitably, given the number and complexity of variables involved, predictions about the long-term impact of remaining or withdrawing from the EU must involve a degree of informed guesswork. Based on the evidence we gathered and on current regional and global trends, we have attempted to identify and outline the key potential risks and opportunities associated with both remaining and leaving. Our analysis aims to assist voters to reach a decision. This decision will be informed by the weight and probability they give to those risks and opportunities.
Collectively, as a Committee, we do not agree on the decision and therefore do not endorse either a "remain" or a "leave" vote. Whatever the outcome, there will be a clearer path for the United Kingdom to follow.
So basically even they could not make up their minds.
I think the report as a whole addresses most of the questions and is well worth reading, but it is hard going and inconclusive.
In my opinion it comes as near as practical to guessing what might happen.
[blue]Note that it was supposed to guide the voters; yet its existence has not really been publicised at all. [/blue]
Quote: fopdoodle @ 13th May 2016, 11:21 AM BSTBut avoiding debate just raises more questions. What is he hiding?
That there is no good reason to stay and no good obstacle to leaving.
Quote: Shandonbelle @ 26th March 2016, 3:28 PM GMTThe distrust comes from the amount of 'no details have been worked out yet' I see everywhere in regard to what the real consequences and changes will be / mean if we opt out.
The government, much like the actress said to the bishop, wouldn't know what to do with it if they got it. There lies the unease.
People should stop worrying about what happens if we leave. The UK will muddle through and be OK; it always does.
Start worrying instead about what happens if we stay in the EU. Among other things the UK will have been weakened by having threatened to leave but then not doing so; the other coundries will thump all over it.
And in the long run they will be aiming for "The Union of European States" EUS just like the USSR was not like the USA. It'll have MORE countries in it with their low paid workers free to come here here.
And as for the EU on defence, that is a bit laughable. The EU caused the Ukraine conflict by wanting to expand that way and did the EU come to our aid in 1982 (we were members of the EEC then) when Argentina invaded the Falklands; no they did not and it was French-built missiles that sunk our ships.
Quote: fopdoodle @ 13th May 2016, 1:05 PM BSTAll I reckon is that we would have a lot more respect for, and faith in him if he had a bigger pair of bollocks. And to be perfectly honest, they go at it all the time in house of commons, so what's the big difference?
Even if they did shred him to pieces - at least he wouldn't be seen as shifty and evasive as with the whole inheritance and tax debacle.
Nobody wants a shirker as the boss.
Cameron has a sort of primitive instinctual brain. He thinks far more like a lizard or cat, perhaps some sort of rodent. There's no planning or strategising but he reacts swiftly. So he knows he stays ahead of the inheritance tax business, most people who vote for him will forget it or forgive him.
And it's only the sour types who would never vote for him who'd remember it.
I think that whole thing being caught being rude about the Nigerians was deliberate. Because he knew the people who vote Conservative like that sort of thing and were getting envious of Labour being seen as the nasty party.
He knows if he dodges, evades and never gets caught talking about awkward subjects then basically he's golden.
What Europe as a union have given us -
Red tape and loony laws, petty rules and regulations that's made grey suited eurocrats wealthy at the expense of the working classes. Sick making hypocrisy from EU leaders. Federalism and mad ambition which has caused Russia to flex its muscles. A third world war will be caused by the EU, no one else.
Football - Diving and cheating bastards where anyone but the English are allowed to win. Betting scandals with bent refs. EUFA corrupt outfit run by Barcelona biased technology hating shysters. EUFA is just the EU in shorts, we know they will fix everything for the continental favourites every time and it's a warning of how the EU will treat us if we stay.
Culture - Eurovision and general eurotrash.
Society - they've ruined it, completely foreignised it to the point of not knowing what country you're living in anymore, with some high streets looking more like Bagdad or Algiers now.
Identity - they've f**ked our own national identities a loony lefty liberal vision of multiculturalism, supposed to bring all ethnic groups together and banish racism, war and division. it's doing the exact opposite making us hate our own neighbours and will undoubtedly lead to rivers of blood, or already has!
A little bit unfair to blame all of that on Europe, Alfred, and indeed to imply that it's the EU specifically.