To give you food for thought/disagreement. Apparently there has now been a surge in LibDem membership.
General Election 2015 Page 30
Quote: A Horseradish @ 9th May 2015, 8:19 PM BSTOn your point, post WW2 social democrats and social liberals - eg Kennedy - are often almost identical. I believe David Laws who drew up the LD manifesto has been described as a liberal in the 19th Century tradition of Gladstone. I'd agree 19th Century liberals are not social democrats.
I disagree. Social Democrats tend to be 'Labour light'.
Their main tool is the state, albeit driven by less radical ideas.
Liberals on the other hand are concerned with the individual.
In essence both exist on different plains.
The SocDems operate along the line of left-right, simply not being as far left as other leftists.
Liberals meanwhile operate along the line of fascism-anarchy.
The two are intellectually fairly divorced of each other, but can collide in quite substantial ways, when tested.
Quote: Gussie Fink Nottle @ 9th May 2015, 8:33 PM BSTAshdown got old. It really was that simple. The idea that he was retired due to some and plan, once Blair was established is way, way out there, Horseradish.
And Ashdown praising Clegg is unusual?
Is it that much different as with other leaders sticking by their successors?
Did Kinnock savage Blair, Brown or Miliband? Nope. Sticking to the successor is part of the act. In that regard Ashdown is nothing unusual.But yes, if there's one thing which made me smiled was that Clegg announced that liberalism is in trouble in this country in his resignation speech.
Who was the voice of liberalism, wondered aloud. Not Clegg, nor any of his party.In that regard the LibDems have been a busted flush for years.
But not because of some conspiracy theory.
Simply because they concentrated on hoovering up the protest vote, instead of being interested in representing liberal policy.
So you don't think that the SDP was a creation of Reagan's people then? I was a member of it for two years - I think the original certificate says "founder member" - and in fact I don't do meetings. I don't do networking. I don't do conferences. Actually I don't do ambition. I was a paper member. I had no idea for many decades that we had all been duped and that it was a key part of ensuring the new right wing economics would prevail. I mean. It looked like it was a sort of halfway house between the Liberals and Attlee's Labour. But the number who ended up being Tory Ministers in Cameron's first Government is astonishing. Lansley was ex SDP and assisted by ex SDP Shirl to privatise the NHS. And she, Owen, many of the others.......they all have very close American Establishment connections.
Quote: A Horseradish @ 9th May 2015, 7:54 PM BSTThe arithmetic in 2010 meant that only an agreement between the Tories and the LDs was realistic. I said from day one that it should be on a vote-by-vote basis. I was proven right
I really don't think you were.
Quote: Aaron @ 9th May 2015, 8:37 PM BSTNo, it was AV! The gits.
You really wanted me to look this up, didn't you? 
It happened after AV, granted. But....
Quote from BBC link below:
'In August 2012, Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg admitted defeat over plans for House of Lords reform because of backbench Tory MPs' opposition to the plans. He said this opposition represented a breach of the coalition agreement between the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, so his party would now oppose Tory-championed plans to cut the number of MPs in Parliament.'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19166125
I rest my case, m'lud. 
Quote: Aaron @ 9th May 2015, 8:47 PM BSTI really don't think you were.
We'll agree on that.
Quote: A Horseradish @ 9th May 2015, 8:44 PM BSTSo you don't think that the SDP was a creation of Reagan's people then?
No, I don't.
This is great reading, Gussie: http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/election-2015-social-democracy-is-dead.-dont-mourn/16955
Quote: Aaron @ 9th May 2015, 8:47 PM BSTI really don't think you were.
Oh yes I am.
Was.
Still am.
I'm always right as I said before. 
Quote: Gussie Fink Nottle @ 9th May 2015, 8:52 PM BSTYou really wanted me to look this up, didn't you?
It happened after AV, granted. But....Quote from BBC link below:
'In August 2012, Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg admitted defeat over plans for House of Lords reform because of backbench Tory MPs' opposition to the plans. He said this opposition represented a breach of the coalition agreement between the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, so his party would now oppose Tory-championed plans to cut the number of MPs in Parliament.'http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19166125
I rest my case, m'lud.
Mr Cameron says he thinks that the deal was the Lib Dems getting a referendum on changing the voting system to AV (held last year) in return for the Conservatives getting the UK's constituency boundaries redrawn.
I rest my case, m'lud.
So maybe we're both right. But I'd believe Cameron on that one rather than Clegg. Electoral reform for electoral reform seems a much more likely agreement in the coalition agreement to me, no?
Quote: A Horseradish @ 9th May 2015, 8:54 PM BSTI'm always right as I said before.
But you're wrong in that as well. 
Quote: Aaron @ 9th May 2015, 8:52 PM BSTThis is great reading, Gussie: http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/election-2015-social-democracy-is-dead.-dont-mourn/16955
If you like works of fiction. Miliband wasn't offering social democracy. The SNP and Plaid are closer to it but actually social democracy isn't allowed to exist by the EU - to which historically it is wedded - as that's tied in to the modern American economics. Just ask the very wise 96 year old Helmut Schmidt.
True theoretical social democracy, no. But the darned closest to it that the whole electorate were offered. The article is otherwise pretty much spot on.
Quote: Aaron @ 9th May 2015, 9:02 PM BSTTrue theoretical social democracy, no. But the darned closest to it that the whole electorate were offered. The article is otherwise pretty much spot on.
So you don't think SNP or Plaid Cymru were closer to social democracy than Miliband then?
I make little judgement on Plaid or SNP, other than that they're both nuts. But I said whole electorate, not regionalised.
Quote: Aaron @ 9th May 2015, 9:07 PM BSTI make little judgement on Plaid or SNP, other than that they're both nuts. But I said whole electorate, not regionalised.
Fair enough.
But the main champions of social democracy in Britain are, of course, UKIP. That's why there is a lot of merit in Farage. As soon as we get out of EU, we can have parties winning elections with policies not tied in with the US economy. UKIP are the autobahn to Britain becoming like West Germany.
Quote: Aaron @ 9th May 2015, 8:52 PM BSTThis is great reading, Gussie: http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/election-2015-social-democracy-is-dead.-dont-mourn/16955
Not sure about this article.
Seems a bit like someone gloating, to be honest.
I agree that Labour are a receptacle for political correctness to a painful extent. I mean, who would not have enjoyed watching footage of Harriet Harman's pink bus being hit by a rocket propelled grenade?
But the announcement that the other side is dead, only made up of twitterati and metropolitan types? I'm not sure I buy that.
The Tories may have a hundred more seats, but that's hardly some historic revolution. Such majorities we have seen again and again.
True, it's hard to see where Labour go from here.
But who knows what happens next?
The Tories will be heading for some seriously rocky times with a small majority.
The SNP meanwhile have had such success, that very possibly the only route from here is down.
With a decent leader Labour may be back.
And I'm hardly speaking as their number one fan.
--
Regards the boundary changes falling out between the coalition partners, I do recall the Tory backbenchers staging a bit of a rebellion at the time.
Now sure, Clegg will have had little trouble getting his troops to defy the Tories, following the defeat over AV (which was a stupid thing to invest political capital in anyhow!), but I do think in this case the trouble emanated from the Tory backbenchers.
As for Cameron's credibility on this matter. Well, what was easier, claiming that the LibDems were bad losers or admitting one had temporarily lost control over one's backbenchers?
And please, I would have gladly seen Clegg strung up with piano wire at the time. So little reason of mine to side with the LibDems.
Quote: Gussie Fink Nottle @ 9th May 2015, 9:38 PM BSTNot sure about this article.
Seems a bit like someone gloating, to be honest.I agree that Labour are a receptacle for political correctness to a painful extent. I mean, who would not have enjoyed watching footage of Harriet Harman's pink bus being hit by a rocket propelled grenade?
But the announcement that the other side is dead, only made up of twitterati and metropolitan types? I'm not sure I buy that.
The Tories may have a hundred more seats, but that's hardly some historic revolution. Such majorities we have seen again and again.True, it's hard to see where Labour go from here.
But who knows what happens next?
The Tories will be heading for some seriously rocky times with a small majority.
The SNP meanwhile have had such success, that very possibly the only route from here is down.
With a decent leader Labour may be back.And I'm hardly speaking as their number one fan.
--
Regards the boundary changes falling out between the coalition partners, I do recall the Tory backbenchers staging a bit of a rebellion at the time.
Now sure, Clegg will have had little trouble getting his troops to defy the Tories, following the defeat over AV (which was a stupid thing to invest political capital in anyhow!), but I do think in this case the trouble emanated from the Tory backbenchers.
As for Cameron's credibility on this matter. Well, what was easier, claiming that the LibDems were bad losers or admitting one had temporarily lost control over one's backbenchers?
And please, I would have gladly seen Clegg strung up with piano wire at the time. So little reason of mine to side with the LibDems.
There is a comment that could be made about women who mainly wear pink. For reasons of political correctness, I won't make it. I am just hoping that the person Harriet chose to steer the pink bus was old enough not only to have acquired a licence but to be able to keep calm when driving it forward.