I hope your standup is more original than your foruming, Soots.
Rape jokes Page 3
Good work Sooty, one day you're going to write a book and attribute it to someone else.
Quote: Vader @ May 11 2011, 4:25 PM BSTGood work Sooty, one day you're going to write a book and attribute it to someone else.
eh?
Quote: Nat Wicks @ May 11 2011, 4:25 PM BSTI hope your standup is more original than your foruming, Soots.
I should certainly hope not I am the Pavlov of tired hackneyed material.
I'm thinking of replacing all of my gags with a laugh now bell.
That or hitting the Lancashire comedy circuit, I believe some of their more daring comics have just started experimenting with knock knock jokes.
You'd be f**king lucky to get on in the Lancs circuit - Manchester especially has some AMAZING circuit acts. Until recently, all the best NE acts would move to Lancs for the circuit there. Jason Cook and Sarah Millican for example.
Please don't let this rape thread devolve into a bickering match!
Quote: David Bussell @ May 11 2011, 4:37 PM BSTPlease don't let this bickering thread devolve into a rape match!
My word the circles you move in since you married above your station!
'Rape Match', live on Sky One.
Surprise, Surprise
I worked on a version of that replacing Cilla Black with Jeffrey Dahmer
Surprise Demise
Turns out the market wasn't ready for it.
Now that reminds me of a funny Frankie Boyle joke, where he's saying they can't do the secret millionaire any more so he think the time's right for the secret rapist. Then they ask the guy if he's going to give them some money now, and he says 'not exactly, no'.
Hmmm. Funny really is a subjective term, isn't it?
Maybe you'd find it funny if you saw Frankie perform it! Assuming you were replying to me of course.
Quote: Vader @ May 11 2011, 7:20 AM BSTI think the article itself was the joke. Those statistics that haven't referenced the source don't suggest why these rapists think all men are rapists, or that this in any way influenced their decision(s), or that there's any corellation with the introduction of rape jokes.
You could just as easily use those statistics to suggest that it wasn't rape jokes, but feminists that made them think that all men are potential rapists and that they're responsible - if you wanted to be extremely lazy and unscientific.
That clarifies matters - thank you.
No worries.
Very interesting article. Makes perfect sense to me. All social communication distributes, confirms and upholds the perspectives of the group (or at least the perspectives of the loudest members of any given group), and has a conforming effect on behaviour in one way or another, like urban myths (example, the one with the older woman having an awkward moment at the gynecologist's, having confused the smell-good-spray with glitter-glue-spray being a commentary on youth's obsession with trimming and decorating their sex organs, or whatnot) or baptism (example, the roles given to godfathers/mothers, making them feel responsibility towards the child's Christian upbringing) or initiation into a group (example, rookie given hell until he has learned the ropes, tricked into doing all the worst work, etc, until there is a newer addition, you know, this pecking order thing).
It also fits with research in other areas, like this one long term research into teenagers' perspectives with regards to "inappropriate" behaviour, in that kids who agreed (in a survey) that drinking and doing drugs was bad were not inclined to do so (well, duh, hehe), but more importantly, that WHEN they started to alter their perspectives, when they felt more positive towards drinking and started to think it was "ok", well, of course there is a correlation with that and them starting drinking. I know, this sounds so banal, so straight forward and silly, but the perspectives people share is a huge indicator of what they are thinking about and what they are likely to do. Or not do.
However. And this is a big however. Jokes, urban myths, and all social communication are also hugely dependant on what's "in fashion" at the moment. You know, trends, current topics, etc. Watching an old episode on telly, where a comedian tells a joke about Austrian diy in the basement, well, obviously Fritzl. We can see a clear connection, and can date the episode very closely to when it first aired. Or at least find a "not before" date. Like a sort of Comedy Archaeology, just without all the digging. Likewise, a comedian doing a joke about the two towers, yes, clearly not from before they fell. A joke about the Nasa shuttle that exploded, well, obviously not from before it exploded. Jokes about catholic priests are prevalent every time a catholic priest scandal surfaces, etc, etc, etc. And. Some jokes get recycled, in the way that it's basically the same joke, but a few details get changed according to the current trend topic. So. Even though rapists think a lot about rape and are more likely to tell rapist jokes than others, well, a person watching coverage of rape on the news is more likely to tell a rapist joke, simply because they are thinking about it. Also, with characters like Frankie Boyle who kind of create an image, a brand, around such jokes, well... sure, maybe he's a closet rapist, or maybe an active rapist, but there's not necessarily always a correlation because there can be so many factors involved. But at any rate, we DO get accustomed to our own "social norm", whatever our social ingroup(s) might be, AND we DO test the limits and take a step to the edge now and again. You know, like with kids, always said that kids keep testing their limits, just to see what they can do, how far they can go. Kids are no different from adults in that respect. Adults do this too. Maybe more subtly. Then we have this concept of culture shock. When you start a new job, and everything is so new and weird and you don't know all the hidden rules, the proper social behaviour, and at such a point you might be more "aware" or "sensitive" about things you wouldn't normally do, like people taking a longer lunch break than they are supposed to, or whatever.. but after a while you get accustomed to things, start to behave like the group, you develop a new social norm based on whoever is in your social group at any given time. Social norm is not a constant, it depends on who you socialise with. And conformity and mimicky behaviour is a powerful thing. For example, people who are in close proximity and are interested in the person they are talking to start to mimic or mirror their hand gestures (subconsciously). Hell, even women who spend a lot of time together (classmates, work colleagues, etc) start to synchronise their periods. Obviously subconsciously. So this is not only a behavioural thing, it's a biological thing as well. Innate in our behavior. (Opposites attract however, apparently because you feel sexually attractive to someone with a different genepool, because a wider selection of genes makes up for better survival chances.)
Also, we mimic our habits and what we have done before. Like children's roleplay, BEING Superman by turning a blanket into a cape, or being the shopkeeper and the other kid being the customer by turning stones into money and leaves, flowers, etc, into goods. Men who molest boys often (not always) have a history of having been molested in their youth by a grown man. Monkey see, monkey do. Human see, human do. To me, it's not Christmas unless there's a Christmas tree. Plastic one. To some people it is not Christmas unless there is a live Christmas tree with that tree or barr smell. To each his own.
And it's not only rapists that "try" their social group, looking for validation of their thoughts and opinions. We all do that. Humans are social creatures. It's human behavior, plain and simple. Borderline behaviour just means that you aren't attuned enough to the norm, don't socialise enough (or well enough) with the medium.
Quote: Timbo @ May 10 2011, 11:57 PM BSTDo many people tell rape jokes? What exactly is a rape joke? "How many rapists does it take to change a light bulb?"? (*scratches around for joke based on screw and bayonet fittings and thinks better of it*)
Yes the fine line between eschewing suffocating political correctness and normalising social evil needs to be trod with care, but most people who are not dickheads have got that one by the time they leave the playground.
How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?
THIS IS NOT FUNNY!!!!!!!!!
I've always liked that one. Coincidentally, I sometimes think feminists tend to be TOO black and white in a world of greys.
So yeah. Jokes themselves aren't bad. Jokes don't rape people. Just like guns don't kill people. People do. Jokes help, make it easier or faster or whatever, paving the road... They might be that little bit (or big bit) to push a rapist-to-be over the edge instead of drawing him closer to the social norm. Just like guns might provide people who would otherwise not kill with an easy opportunity to act before thinking things through.
Also. Whole societies can be wrong. That article also fits with that saying, "50 Frenchmen can't be wrong". Because they can be wrong. It's just that feeling we sometimes get. Everybody said that I should do this. So I did it. Or you know. The people you look up to or socialise with most think something is a good idea, so you agree. Or maybe you disagree and do it anyway. And kids going "I HAVE to have a mobile, EVERYONE has one at school!!!", which ties this together with that primal need to conform, of being part of a given ingroup, of being popular. This is what is dangerous about religion, prejudice and all that, because it's an excuse, you know. Righteousness. If we feel like something is the right thing/way, then we feel more entitled to behave in a certain way, even if it happens to be a bad way. Like arguing, because we want to see our point through, I AM RIGHT, I "won" the arguement. But both partners lose out on the communicational, social and emotional side.
Thing is. This "validating one's behaviour" is also a "shifting responsibility" thing. Like that research. The Milgram experiment. It's easier to do horrible things if we don't feel responsible, if we are just a part of a clog. This is one piece of the jigsaw puzzle of what happened in Nazi Germany. And this happens every day. Only, it doesn't happen on such a collectively big scale as it did back in the war, and so it doesn't get noticed in the same way. Even the guilt trip over that, I mean, a whole generation, or two, of Germans feeling so guilty over the whole thing, there was one guy on a documentary on Eurovision, a German, saying that he felt like Europe had finally forgiven them for the war, just because Germany won Eurovision. Just because people voted for "Germany". Imagine what kind of national identity that guy must have, and how shy he must have felt about that German stereotype, to have said such a thing, to put so much meaning into A SONG winning Eurovision. Listening, TRULY listening to what people say can tell one so much about what is important to them and what they obsess about. Because we all obsess about something. We wouldn't be human if we didn't.
That's just my two cents anyway. Ooops. Very long post. Didn't intend to, it just was all there before I knew it. And time just vanished. I hate it when time does that. There might be some ramble in between there, or even a lot of incoherent ramble, I'm a little tired, and one thought jumped at me after another. Sowwy.
So yeah. That old Freudian thing. The things people say CAN be indicative of what they will or will not do. But it can also be dangerous to read TOO MUCH into it, to infer meaning when there is none, or connect dots when they should rather be kept apart. It's a tricky thing. Like archaeology. Not a single Time Team episode passes by without the archaeologist disagreeing about how to interpret the facts.