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Female comedians Page 18
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ January 4 2011, 12:37 AM GMTYes I can, and that is exactly why I post on this thread from time to time, I do not like blanket one sided appraisals which strike me as having major flaws in them. The arguments being put forward for why women comedians struggle are disengenuous at best, terribly weak and reek of prejudice against males.
I say again, if men do not find you women funny, then either target female audiences or just give up, maybe comedy and being funny is not your thing. To blame men for being the problem is absolutely farcical.
Alfred, what thread are you reading?
I have better things to do, like clean my teeth. Night all.
Quote: JoLaw @ January 4 2011, 12:30 AM GMT
I've been to open mic nights where a woman has been the best act of the night (again, appreciated by men too) and I've spoken to lots of men who really like Jo Brand and Victoria Wood (amongst others).
So then what is the problem you have with male punters? Why spend earlier posts criticising the right of men not to like what they see of a female stand up?
Not having a go at anyone, I am genuinely interested in why women politicise comedy so much! And seem to blame their lack of success on the male race.
I've no idea what Alf is trying to argue here, but it looks like he's outnumbered.
I agree with whatever he's saying.
(Especially if he's saying that Victoria Wood, Jo Brand, French, Saunders or any other comedienne over 40 is shit.)
Wow, you got your opinions from MAGAZINES? That's just great Kipper, you've got us all beaten hands down. Everyone knows that magazines aren't just full of opinion pieces filled with blanket statements.
Good going with your fact findings.
It is not men who are the problem, Kipper. It is both men AND women who have a preloaded view that female comedians aren't funny, without having any reason to back that up, other than they've got the opinion from elsewhere. The preloaded view which has been fed down for years that women just aren't funny! The preloaded view which society (on both sides) has peddled for generations that women have no place in comedy.
The reason that there is a larger number now than ever, is that a lot of people are realising how f**king stupid that preloaded view is. How totally and utterly pig-f**k retarded it is. And they've decided that giving other genders (and races for that matter) a fair chance.
I'm not surprised that VW has a large majority of female fans though- she was something of a novelty for women- the first truly sucessful lady stand up. But I think that it is more about her female fans drawing towards something which they felt empowered them in a time when we were only just becoming equal citizens.
It's a shame that you don't take more of an interest in comedy, Kipper, because you're missing out on some fabulous acts. Female acts of note, who are currently gigging the circuit include Sarah Millican, Josie Long, JoJo Sutherland, Roisin Conalty (Best newcomer at Ed fringe this year, like SM was 2 or 3 years ago). All very universal subject matter. All of whom seem to be rated by male fans as much as they are female.
Of course there are some female comics who I don't rate, just as there are many male comics: Shappi Korsandi for one (but that's just because she really DOES play her comedy towards her sex and religion which in her case I find very lazy. "Hi everyone, I'm muslim and I've got a vagina!" Well done, love.)
Quote: Nat Wicks @ January 4 2011, 2:19 AM GMTWow, you got your opinions from MAGAZINES? That's just great Kipper, you've got us all beaten hands down. Everyone knows that magazines aren't just full of opinion pieces filled with blanket statements.
Good going with your fact findings.
Morning Miss Wicks, I do hope you managed to get some sleep inbetween your female tub thumping and political BS spouting. Before you cut my little penis off that voodoo doll you made of me last night, I shall inform you that the magazines I refered to are weekend supplements where the female comedians in question have happily given this information. If it is not correct, then you must blame them, not me, or the male race.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ January 4 2011, 1:13 AM GMTSo then what is the problem you have with male punters? Why spend earlier posts criticising the right of men not to like what they see of a female stand up?
Not having a go at anyone, I am genuinely interested in why women politicise comedy so much! And seem to blame their lack of success on the male race.
Firstly, male 'race'? Really?
Secondly, who's talking about lack of success? As far as I was aware, most of us are talking about a relatively small number of people who let their prejudices affect their judgement.
MOST consumers of comedy (the people who are actually involved in the scene and have seen a fair bit of stand up) don't have a gender bias, but there's a minority that do, and they make it really difficult.
The success of people like Sarah Millican is important because she's had to overcome prejudice and deal with arsehole men in order to get there. If 99% of the audience are sitting there prepared to judge her on her material rather than anything else, then that's great. But it only takes 1% who are misogynistic idiots and vocal with it, to make a gig difficult.
One of my friends assumed he wouldn't like her. I'm not sure on what basis, but I remember him telling me he wasn't keen despite never having seen her. After watching her on TV in something, he changed his opinion and had to admit that he was wrong and had pre judged her. I think that's typical of a relatively enlightened bloke.
Women starting out in comedy have an extra hurdle to get over, which you can't deny given some of your posts! Given how well some of them have done, that speaks volumes. They've had to be REALLY good to get where they are....and they are.
Quote: Nat Wicks @ January 4 2011, 2:19 AM GMTIt is not men who are the problem, Kipper. It is both men AND women who have a preloaded view that female comedians aren't funny, without having any reason to back that up, other than they've got the opinion from elsewhere. The preloaded view which has been fed down for years that women just aren't funny! The preloaded view which society (on both sides) has peddled for generations that women have no place in comedy.
Madam, with sincere respect, this is the utterest nonsense that just a little research would dispell from your mind. I find it very hard to believe that the majority of males have just decided that women can't be funny without giving them a go.
The reality I would say is that many men have indeed tried female comedy and on the whole they do not really like it. Now forgive me if that sounds like an unpaletable truth, but I think that is far nearer rality than your neatly devised theory which makes you feel good as a woman comedian plying your trade but is almost certainly entirely wrong.
Quote: Nat Wicks @ January 4 2011, 2:19 AM GMTIt's a shame that you don't take more of an interest in comedy, Kipper, because you're missing out on some fabulous acts. Female acts of note, who are currently gigging the circuit include Sarah Millican, Josie Long, JoJo Sutherland, Roisin Conalty (Best newcomer at Ed fringe this year, like SM was 2 or 3 years ago). All very universal subject matter. All of whom seem to be rated by male fans as much as they are female.
Madam, please, I have had a keen interest in comedy since before you were born (forgive me for refering your age but you yourself have willingly told us). Can I remind you that stand up comedy is NOT the only sub genre of comedy, however deeply immersed in it you currently are. I do admire your passion, but maybe it is your scope that needs to widen more than mine?
And while I haven't seen any of the above live, I have seen a Josie Long performance - hmmm, nice enough girl but hardly earth shattering comedy, is it.
And I have seen two bits of Sarah Millican's act on TV now. The much hyped Sarah Millican. I sat there feeling sorry for the lady, her material was so pitifully weak. IMO! She has a nice enough style, I think she's honed that very well indeed, but the material just doesn't match it. IMO! For me she is one who walks the walk but definitely doesn't talk the talk. IMO!
But of course I could just not be getting what makes many female fans of hers faint with laughter because I am a male, not a female - to just dismiss this fact is totally wrong as there's much, much evidence to suggest that gender specific comedy does not appeal to the opposite gender. Ask the psychologists.
What about her male fans who are laughing? Why do you assume because you don't find it that funny, it's because of her sex?
There are loads of comedians I don't find funny. I usually assume it's because it's not to my taste, not that they're the wrong gender.
Incidentally, regarding Sarah Millican. Out of curiosity I went on her facebook fan page. On her last update, from the first 5 comments, 4 were from men.
I am not assuming this Jo, I am merely suggesting it as a POSSIBLE reason as to why I personally cannot laugh at an act that many women are saying they find amazingly good. I am watching the same thing as them but just not getting it. So I offer the gender thing as one possible reason why. It saves me impolitely saying that I think she is just unfunny. To me she is yes, or her act is, but I do believe you when you say others laugh at her, I have seen them myself on TV.
Well Mr Kipper historically the "funny women" has been portrayed as a dangerous, emasculating harpy who must be tamed. This may not be statistical or even the vaunted "magazine data." But check out everything from ancient Greek Literature "The Frogs," via the Bible and the Prioresses tale in the Cantebury Tales. Hell one of Shakespeare's comedies was called The Taming of the Shrew.
So in the last 50 years women comedians have over turned a massive cultural paradigm (though some would say it started with the Bronte sisters).
And you're moaning they haven't succeded completely.
More to the point why are you bothering?
Why am I bothering?
This is all rather tedious.
Sooty I am only bothering because so many women have decided to politicise the subject of female comedy here and they are holding the male comedy fans to account for daring not to like it, it seems. I found this alarming and the premise to be blaringly weak at best, and probably provably wrong. And men are entitled not to like female acts and express this if it is really not their thing.
But because some men have done this, some women have got hysterically defensive about their gender, grabbed at any old anti-male nonsense they could think of and proceeded to spout generalised sweeping statements and claim men are wrong to have their own personal opinions if they clash with those of the women performers and the majority of fans who like them.
I also want to say with regards to Nat's comedy, it certainly has cross gender appeal.
The guy I was sitting next to, (the spitting image of Brian Blessed, who apparently has seen most of my gigs, but who, by some miracle, I don't recall) was laughing earnestly at her. On the drive home, my male friend commented that she'd been really good, and had no idea that I knew who she was.
It's just funny, well structured, well performed and I'm pretty sure she'll soon be well known, and we'll soon be having a conversation about why the odd person doesn't find her funny and how that must be a woman thing, rather than a different taste thing.
I can't speak for Nat, but personally I've found the North East open mic scene really friendly and welcoming. Performing isn't that scary, and there haven't been any hostile reactions. When I've seen an act bomb, they've just had to face silence rather than anything more terrifying. I've been lucky enough never to bomb....yet. It's early days and I know everybody does sometimes.
I've experienced stand up comedy on three levels. The open mic circuit which I'm now involved in, and it's lovely. The top level is more well known acts that I've been to see, and again that's a nice environment because folks rarely pay to see comedians they hate. Just the odd really dull masochist.
The middle level is what terrifies me. Paid nights with a few acts on the bill, and a drunk, idiotic audience. That's the level where comedians get a hard time. The only female I've seen performing at that level was Sarah Millican, and to her credit she did win over an initially hostile crowd. I know that if I ever want to do comedy as a job, I am going to have to face people like that, who are ready to hate me because I'm a woman before I've even said a word. I'm not paranoid enough to believe it's going to be a majority, but it doesn't have to be really, does it?
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ January 4 2011, 9:16 AM GMTBt because some men have done this, some women have got hysterically defensive about their gender, grabbed at any old anti male nonsense they could think of and proceeded to spout generalised sweeping statements and claim men are wrong to have their own personal opinions if they clash with those of the women performers and the majority of fans who like them.
Hysterically defensive? Seriously?
If you don't believe that a woman can rationally and logically put forward an argument for something she believes passionately in without being 'hysterical', then the words 'lost cause' are really, really not strong enough.
Madam, you yourself have been calm, rational eloquence itself, but one or two others have been a little less so.