Quote: sglen @ December 4 2009, 12:13 PM GMTLet's agree to disagree
Sure, why not. But you do know you're wrong though.
Never Mind The Buzzcocks - Series 23 (2009) Page 15
Quote: jim field @ December 4 2009, 12:17 PM GMTSure, why not. But you do know you're wrong though.
Oof! This is like reading the user comments on the Guardian webpage. Always makes me want to lecture people! I usually hold back. It's not good for the old blood pressure.
This argument could go on forever. We'll never see eye to eye on this. Just dislike attributing class to someone's bad behaviour. As if saying "well they will behave like that. Don't be a snob". It's an extremely middle class view that you have and it will annoy people of a different background because it is a little bit offensive I'm afraid.
Anyway! Stop! Shut up, Sarah! It doesn't matter! This is my last word, I promise!
EDIT: I am very aware of how annoying playing the old "working class" card is. I hang my head in shame.
I don't like Dappy or N-Dubz because for me, they represent a part of the music industry which is stale. I'm talking about Grime Music. It's like Hip-hop or conventional rap, but it's much worse and is fueled by Chav Culture. The same rubbish that hoodies play on their phones on the bus, annoying everyone on board. This is coming from someone who likes Jay-Z and Kanye West, so my opinion isn't biased. But that whole aspect of music (rap, hip-hop, grime etc) has long had it's day and isn't the sort of thing that should be dominating the charts when there's far more talented and appealing artists.
Quote: Joey Moose @ December 4 2009, 12:32 PM GMTI don't like Dappy or N-Dubz because for me, they represent a part of the music industry which is stale. I'm talking about Grime Music. It's like Hip-hop or conventional rap, but it's much worse and is fueled by Chav Culture. The same rubbish that hoodies play on their phones on the bus, annoying everyone on board. This is coming from someone who likes Jay-Z and Kanye West, so my opinion isn't biased. But that whole aspect of music (rap, hip-hop, grime etc) has long had it's day and isn't the sort of thing that should be dominating the charts when there's far more talented and appealing artists.
I think there's a lot of "stale" genres in the mainstream charts, though. Guitar bands are hardly breaking boundaries at the moment, but there's a lot of really interesting stuff going on on the alternative scene. It'll always be that way, and if something is popular it will get in the charts. It may be true to some extent that there is more talent elsewhere but the charts reflect the tastes of the majority and, as such, Dappy has his place. I'm not a fan, but he must entertain a lot of people.
Quote: jim field @ December 4 2009, 11:31 AM GMTDappy? I was going to leave it, but seeing as people keep bringing it up - I am staggered, or perhaps not, by just how worked up people of a certain background get whenever they see someone from a different culture do well financially - and on their own terms too!
Wow. Are you one of those people who assumes every time someone says they don't find Lenny Henry funny, it's because he's black?
Quote: zooo @ December 4 2009, 1:28 PM GMTWow. Are you one of those people who assumes every time someone says they don't find Lenny Henry funny, it's because he's black?
No, I'm one of the people who will say, 'you know what? I agree with you, Lenny Henry is not funny; sure I think he was good on kids TV, but he should have tried to develop his serious acting craft a lot earlier, as he is actually pretty good in this field'.
Do you have opinion on his charming lady wife?
Quote: sglen @ December 4 2009, 12:22 PM GMTOof! This is like reading the user comments on the Guardian webpage. Always makes me want to lecture people! I usually hold back. It's not good for the old blood pressure.
This argument could go on forever. We'll never see eye to eye on this. Just dislike attributing class to someone's bad behaviour. As if saying "well they will behave like that. Don't be a snob". It's an extremely middle class view that you have and it will annoy people of a different background because it is a little bit offensive I'm afraid.
Anyway! Stop! Shut up, Sarah! It doesn't matter! This is my last word, I promise!
EDIT: I am very aware of how annoying playing the old "working class" card is. I hang my head in shame.
Sarah, are you quite young? You can kid yourself all you like, but part of the dislike of Dappy comes from a furiously snobbish disregard for his personal struggle and class-challenges. Were he an industry product, he would be fine, but the fact that he is entirely self-made makes him dangerous. Dappy is fully aware of how he is being portrayed when on middle-class TV, and he plays to it because it 'works' - something that flies over the heads of many people who might hope to know better.
Quote: jim field @ December 4 2009, 1:46 PM GMTSarah, are you quite young? You can kid yourself all you like, but part of the dislike of Dappy comes from a furiously snobbish disregard for his personal struggle and class-challenges. Were he an industry product, he would be fine, but the fact that he is entirely self-made makes him dangerous. Dappy is fully aware of how he is being portrayed when on middle-class TV, and he plays to it because it 'works' - something that flies over the heads of many people who might hope to know better.
Talking out of your arse, once again jim.
Quote: bamalamafizzvaj @ December 4 2009, 1:49 PM GMTTalking out of your arse, once again jim.
Ok, I'll bite: I'd like you to provide me with a clear and detailed explanation as to how I am talking out of my ass. Educate me.
Quote: zooo @ December 4 2009, 1:41 PM GMT
Do you have opinion on his charming lady wife?
On a content-basis? Not good.
On a prsonal level? I have huge respect for her for turning down an MBE. That is the very definition of keeping it real; the empire is a garbage concept, best left in the shameful past.
Didn't know she'd done that.
Is there a list of people who've turned them down somewhere?
Quote: jim field @ December 4 2009, 1:46 PM GMTSarah, are you quite young? You can kid yourself all you like, but part of the dislike of Dappy comes from a furiously snobbish disregard for his personal struggle and class-challenges. Were he an industry product, he would be fine, but the fact that he is entirely self-made makes him dangerous. Dappy is fully aware of how he is being portrayed when on middle-class TV, and he plays to it because it 'works' - something that flies over the heads of many people who might hope to know better.
I am quite young but I'm also very aware of continuing class discrimination. I wouldn't disagree that there is still a divide (though it is narrowing) but in Dappy's case I've seen little evidence of class being involved. Dappy is arrogant and annoying. I think most people are put off him by that alone. If I'm completely honest, I didn't see Dappy and think "working-class"; I saw Dappy and thought "middle-class kid playing working-class". He's a stereotype and obviously constructed. So I think you're right that he plays up to it. Or, if he doesn't, his "street" attitude is probably largely why he is famous.
When you say "industry-product" do you mean he wasn't manufactured by a music mogul like many of the pop acts today? I don't know anything about Dappy so I wouldn't be aware if he was or not, but a lot of people work hard. And a lot of working class people who can't afford the internships and who don't have the right contacts work hard and do well too. I've never seen this looked down on before.
I think you're referring to Chav culture and confusing this with working class culture. Chav culture is not working class culture, or rather they are not one and the same. To make this a class issue you are tarring us all with the same brush. I don't think people find Dappy dangerous. He is entirely banign and the vast majority will see him this way. He's just annoying. That's all. Just annoying.
Quote: jim field @ December 4 2009, 2:01 PM GMTOk, I'll bite: I'd like you to provide me with a clear and detailed explanation as to how I am talking out of my ass. Educate me.
You're making massive assumptions of people you've never met, suggesting that the only reason people mock Dappy is because they are insanely jealous of him. Which I very much doubt. You were also needlessly patronising of the other poster you disagreed with, suggesting that they are being daft because they're young. 
I think you'd be more at home on the IMDb boards, jim.
Quote: zooo @ December 4 2009, 2:04 PM GMTDidn't know she'd done that.
Is there a list of people who've turned them down somewhere?
Try Wikipedia - it is a LONG list, and that's only the people who have chosen to go public with their rejection of this nonsense.
Quote: sglen @ December 4 2009, 2:05 PM GMTI am quite young but I'm also very aware of continuing class discrimination. I wouldn't disagree that there is still a divide (though it is narrowing) but in Dappy's case I've seen little evidence of class being involved. Dappy is arrogant and annoying. I think most people are put off him by that alone. If I'm completely honest, I didn't see Dappy and think "working-class"; I saw Dappy and thought "middle-class kid playing working-class". He's a stereotype and obviously constructed. So I think you're right that he plays up to it. Or, if he doesn't, his "street" attitude is probably largely why he is famous.
When you say "industry-product" do you mean he wasn't manufactured by a music mogul like many of the pop acts today? I don't know anything about Dappy so I wouldn't be aware if he was or not, but a lot of people work hard. And a lot of working class people who can't afford the internships and who don't have the right contacts work hard and do well too. I've never seen this looked down on before.
I think you're referring to Chav culture and confusing this with working class culture. Chav culture is not working class culture, or rather they are not one and the same. To make this a class issue you are tarring us all with the same brush. I don't think people find Dappy dangerous. He is entirely banign and the vast majority will see him this way. He's just annoying. That's all. Just annoying.
You know what? You make some sound points. I too am from a working class background; but you must be aware that whilst WE know there is a difference between working class people and people who have found themselves in the 'chav' bracket, most of the kind of people who you will hear use the word 'chav' are not aware of this distinction. It's sad, but it's the way it is.
In relation to tonight's episode and what has been written on the BCGs front page, I want to quote Frankie Boyle:
"One of The Proclaimers - they're twins you daft bastard!"