The Science Thread Page 3

Quote: Kenneth @ July 21 2009, 12:12 PM BST

Nope. That question was answered by Tom Baker in Genesis of the Daleks:

The Doctor: If someone who knew the future, pointed out a child to you and told you that that child would grow up totally evil, to be a ruthless dictator who would destroy millions of lives... could you then kill that child?

Sarah: We're talking about the Daleks. The most evil creatures ever invented. You must destroy them. You must complete your mission for the Time Lords!

The Doctor: Do I have the right? Simply touch one wire against the other and that's it. The Daleks cease to exist. Hundreds of millions of people, thousands of generations can live without fear... in peace, and never even know the word "Dalek".

Sarah: Then why wait? If it was a disease or some sort of bacteria you were destroying, you wouldn't hesitate.

The Doctor: But if I kill, wipe out a whole intelligent life form, then I become like them. I'd be no better than the Daleks.

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I loved that bit.

Forget beaming then and use hyperspace instead.

Somehow me and the deceased Scotty are on this planet 100 light years from Earth looking at Earth in 1909. That's because light is traveling in a direct path from point a to b and is taking 100 years to reach us.

Take a piece of paper and draw point a which is earth and point b which is this imaginary planet, draw a direct line from point a to point b which is 100 mm or 100 light years.

Bend or fold this piece of paper and the direct line remains 100mm no matter how much you bend the paper but the shortest distance between the points is now greatly reduced.

We are at point b looking at point a as it was 100 years ago or if you like images of point a 100 years ago. Now we bend space (hyperspace) and the direct distance or space between a and b for us is now, lets say one light year, although the line from a to b is still there and remains 100 mm or 100 light years. In effect we aren't just bending space and light but we are bending time as we perceive time.

We travel the one year to Earth or point 'a' through what is now the shortest path in the hyperspace we have set up and we should now be on Earth in 1910. Before we bent space and time we were only looking at images that happened 100 years ago, but now we have bent space and time.

Quote: chipolata @ July 21 2009, 12:14 PM BST

That doesn't answer my question at all. You're pre-supposing that any time travellers will have the doctor's moral framework.

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The usual answer is themultiverse one - you split off into a different timeline where Hitler died young. That doesn't stop this universe from existing, you are just no longer in it. This is basic stuff they covered in Back to the Future 2.

Quote: hey_nonny @ July 21 2009, 12:15 PM BST

Forget beaming then and use hyperspace instead.

Somehow me and the deceased Scotty are on this planet 100 light years from Earth looking at Earth in 1909. That's because light is traveling in a direct path from point a to b and is taking 100 years to reach us.

Take a piece of paper and draw point a which is earth and point b which is this imaginary planet, draw a direct line from point a to point b which is 100 mm or 100 light years.

Bend or fold this piece of paper and the direct line remains 100mm no matter how much you bend the paper but the shortest distance between the points is now greatly reduced.

We are at point b looking at point a as it was 100 years ago or if you like images of point a 100 years ago. Now we bend space (hyperspace) and the direct distance or space between a and b for us is now, lets say one light year, although the line from a to b is still there and remains 100 mm or 100 light years. In effect we aren't just bending space and light but we are bending time as we perceive time.

We travel the one year to Earth or point 'a' through what is now the shortest path in the hyperspace we have set up and we should now be on Earth in 1910. Before we bent space and time we were only looking at images that happened 100 years ago, but now we have bent space and time.

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No. You missed my point. You wouldn't be travelling faster than light, you would just be travelling a shorter distance than the light had to. you'd be hopping from 2009 on one planet to 2009 on a different planet because you'd moved them very close to each other.

Why do you suppose that travelling faster than light would take you back in time by exactly the amount you were in distance from Earth anyway?

A fart contains the following six gases:

Carbon dioxide, hydrogen, hydrogen sulphide, methane, nitrogen and oxegen. The act of lighting a fart is known as pyroflatulence.

Quote: Afinkawan @ July 21 2009, 12:18 PM BST

The usual answer is themultiverse one - you split off into a different timeline where Hitler died young. That doesn't stop this universe from existing, you are just no longer in it. This is basic stuff they covered in Back to the Future 2.

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Yes, I know about the old universe splitting off into paralell timelines argument, although it doesn't answer the point that if there was such a thing as time travel, we would have met time travellers by now. Even if they were sending off paralell time lines left, right and centre, we'd still have met them.

Quote: chipolata @ July 21 2009, 12:23 PM BST

if there was such a thing as time travel, we would have met time travellers by now. Even if they were sending off paralell time lines left, right and centre, we'd still have met them.

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Alas, it's true. So we humans evidently destroy ourselves or our planet before we become sufficiently developed to invent time travel.

Quote: Kenneth @ July 21 2009, 12:25 PM BST

Alas, it's true. So we humans evidently destroy ourselves or our planet before we become sufficiently developed to invent time travel.

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Unless time travel is just plain old impossible.

Quote: chipolata @ July 21 2009, 12:23 PM BST

Yes, I know about the old universe splitting off into paralell timelines argument, although it doesn't answer the point that if there was such a thing as time travel, we would have met time travellers by now. Even if they were sending off paralell time lines left, right and centre, we'd still have met them.

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I was only asnwering the Hitler thing.

There are various theories:

- It is only possible to travel back as far as the time that time travel was invented (e.g. if wormholes are the only method)

- Physical time travel is impossible - they can view but not be seen or affect anything (avoids paradox)

- They keep quiet about it (i.e. time travel is so difficult and expensive that very few people are able to and it is thoroughly regulated and controlled - Star Trek style time police)

Quote: Afinkawan @ July 21 2009, 12:18 PM BST

The usual answer is themultiverse one - you split off into a different timeline where Hitler died young. That doesn't stop this universe from existing, you are just no longer in it. This is basic stuff they covered in Back to the Future 2.

No. You missed my point. You wouldn't be travelling faster than light, you would just be travelling a shorter distance than the light had to. you'd be hopping from 2009 on one planet to 2009 on a different planet because you'd moved them very close to each other.

Why do you suppose that travelling faster than light would take you back in time by exactly the amount you were in distance from Earth anyway?

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Then lets stop calling it light but call it time, as the speed of light is how we perceive time. We can't be hopping from 2009 to 2009 because we have effectively bent time through hyperspace. The direct path of time remains but we have set up a short cut through time. Yes I travelled a shorter distance than light (time) had to but the light is still travelling this distance, I am not.

Quote: Afinkawan @ July 21 2009, 12:27 PM BST

- They keep quiet about it (i.e. time travel is so difficult and expensive that very few people are able to and it is thoroughly regulated and controlled - Star Trek style time police)

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It would be very difficult for everybody to keep a secret.

Quote: chipolata @ July 21 2009, 12:26 PM BST

Unless time travel is just plain old impossible.

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Isn't the current theory that we can only travel through time by perfectly replicating ourselves through warp speed travel?

And apologies for this shameless repost:

Quote: chipolata @ July 21 2009, 12:34 PM BST

It would be very difficult for everybody to keep a secret.

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Define 'everybody'. how many people do you think would have access to such technology? And if they can go back and change things, why do you suppose the authorities can't also go ack and cancel out any changes they don't like?

If you could travel through time think of the juvenile fun you could have turning up at important world occasions and dropping your guts. If someone did a stinker beside Lee Harvey Oswald, JFK could be alive today.

Quote: hey_nonny @ July 21 2009, 12:31 PM BST

Then lets stop calling it light but call it time, as the speed of light is how we perceive time. We can't be hopping from 2009 to 2009 because we have effectively bent time through hyperspace. The direct path of time remains but we have set up a short cut through time. Yes I travelled a shorter distance than light (time) had to but the light is still travelling this distance, I am not.

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Calling it time instead of light is just completely changing the laws of physics so yes, if you are going to do that then of course you could travel back to 1909.

Your fundamental error is confusing the light you are seeing (some photons that bounced off Hitler 100 years ago) with the object you are talking about (Hitler himself). They are not the same thing.

Besides, using hyperspace circumvents space-time. you can't have it both ways.

Quote: Nigel Kelly @ July 21 2009, 12:45 PM BST

If you could travel through time think of the juvenile fun you could have turning up at important world occasions and dropping your guts. If someone did a stinker beside Lee Harvey Oswald, JFK could be alive today.

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Doubtful. He'd be about 90 odd.

Quote: Afinkawan @ July 21 2009, 12:41 PM BST

Define 'everybody'. how many people do you think would have access to such technology? And if they can go back and change things, why do you suppose the authorities can't also go ack and cancel out any changes they don't like?

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Everybody as in everybody involved in the programme. And if the authorities have to keep going back and tidying up indiscretions things would soon get pretty convoluted.