Back to Class - Thank You For The Music Page 9

Quote: Tim Walker @ June 21 2009, 9:03 PM BST

This is a very rare visit into Critique for me, but there seems to have been a lot of feedback on this one, so I wanted to take a look.

It's a generally well-shot and polished piece of filming, so no problems there.

First problem is that it's really not funny. There's no real jokes or laughs in the whole thing. The format is predictable and been done a lot better. The main characters don't really have anything of substance about them. They're "out of stock" - chilled-out wanker who thinks he's cool - and "zany" ex-army sergeant-major type. Why are they teachers? Who cares? I know this is a quick "demo pilot", but for a 12 minute piece you need to have a tight, witty script to sell your situation and characters. This just rambles. What you may have considered funny little nuances in the dialogue or performance are mannered or fall flat. The acting is poor (other, ironically, than a couple of the extras in speaking roles). It is also uneven - one of you is trying to do naturalistic, whilst the other is "heightened" to the point of giganticism.

If it were funny, or original at all, then one might make allowances for what seems a self-indulgent piece of work. You need to be very, very, very good to make improv work. This doesn't. You would be better off spending a lot more time working on characters, plot and dialogue.

This is not an embarrassment to watch, but it falls short of anything that's likely to interest a network. It shows great drive and ambition to be producing work of this technical competence, but the fundamental issue of getting laughs is what you have to address. Writer-performers will always be attractive to the TV industry, but on both counts this falls well short.

Best of luck with Jan and for all your future endeavours. Keep at it.

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Thanks for the positive feedback regarding the way the show was shot, it does look good and we are happy with the look.

There are funny moments in the show and the characters do have substance. Keith's Overdoes on Aspin talking head is funny. Keith's prank on Mark is funny as well as exposing that Mark has a dark past which still haunts him. Keith being called "a wanker!" and having his dream of appearing on the lottery is funny. Keith's little speech about the joke backfiring is very funny and makes me laugh every time and I've seen it around 50 times!

The characters are meant to be different and the attitudes on life and there reactions are so different that the rift between them would grow it become a more Rimmer/Lister relationship (don't think I'm comparing it to Red Dwarf because I'm not).

"a self-indulgent piece of work" comment surprises me. It's a show written, directed and starring myself and Dan it is going to be quite self-indulgent because it's all about our 'talent'.

Thanks for complimenting our great drive and ambition I appreciate it. And we will keep working hard.

Quote: sootyj @ June 21 2009, 9:27 PM BST

That maybe the worst idea for a BBC (don't frighten the horses) comedy sketch ever!

Newsrevue would probably love it.

Now back to my Lenny Henry cannibal witch doctor sketch.

I think he was implying something fruitier...

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Was he now?

Quote: James Cotter @ June 21 2009, 9:31 PM BST

Thanks for the positive feedback regarding the way the show was shot, it does look good and we are happy with the look.

There are funny moments in the show and the characters do have substance. Keith's Overdoes on Aspin talking head is funny. Keith's prank on Mark is funny as well as exposing that Mark has a dark past which still haunts him. Keith being called "a wanker!" and having his dream of appearing on the lottery is funny. Keith's little speech about the joke backfiring is very funny and makes me laugh every time and I've seen it around 50 times!

The characters are meant to be different and the attitudes on life and there reactions are so different that the rift between them would grow it become a more Rimmer/Lister relationship (don't think I'm comparing it to Red Dwarf because I'm not).

"a self-indulgent piece of work" comment surprises me. It's a show written, directed and starring myself and Dan it is going to be quite self-indulgent because it's all about our 'talent'.

Thanks for complimenting our great drive and ambition I appreciate it. And we will keep working hard.

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Please do.

If I may say so, I think you are being a bit naive and defensive if you continue to insist that it is funny, when the vast majority of (informed and reasonable) feedback forms the opinion that it isn't. If you feel the need to point out the "funny bits" to your audience - to explain to them why something is funny - then it most likely isn't.

Criticism is always tough to take, especially when you're young. I wrote some terrible stuff years ago (and still have the ability to do so now), which I look back on with a fair degree of embarrassment. The point is to aspire to confound your critics by trying to write/shoot something that will make them laugh. Best form of revenge for hurt feelings.

All the best.

Quote: Kenneth @ June 21 2009, 2:02 PM BST

I write for a living but I don't write sitcoms, so my opinion is worthless.

Like Fred said: Keep writing and writing and improving and within a few years from now, you'll look back on this and cringe. It's great to aspire to greatness, but it takes a lot of hard work, practise and talent. I looked at Parts 1 & 2 of your show and it was a bit like watching a rough version of the Australian mockumentary Summer Heights High - which I disliked at first viewing but then grew to enjoy some of it. Your show would definitely look much better with older actors in the two leads and with better audio (hard to hear what was being said immediately after the narrator introduced Liz and her sad news). Or you could always write a show about people your own age.

And like Dolly (might have) said: You're clearly influenced heavily by the style of The Office, so why not instead try for something really innovative? And write about what you know. And create quirky characters that people can relate to.

Success.

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Thanks for the Summer Heights High comparison. I've only seen a few episodes but enjoyed it. It wasn't a influence on the show though.

And what was said after the narrator introduced Liz was meant to be not quite heard to may you think did he just say what I thought he said. What he did say for interest is:

KEITH
Don't mind do you? Glaucoma, suffering from it a bit.

Quote: Tim Walker @ June 21 2009, 10:12 PM BST

Please do.

If I may say so, I think you are being a bit naive and defensive if you continue to insist that it is funny, when the vast majority of (informed and reasonable) feedback forms the opinion that it isn't. If you feel the need to point out the "funny bits" to your audience - to explain to them why something is funny - then it most likely isn't.

Criticism is always tough to take, especially when you're young. I wrote some terrible stuff years ago (and still have the ability to do so now), which I look back on with a fair degree of embarrassment. The point is to aspire to confound your critics by trying to write/shoot something that will make them laugh. Best form of revenge for hurt feelings.

All the best.

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The reason why I listed what was funny because earlier I got told I didn't explain what I meant so I did this time. If I just responded back to you by saying "no it was funny" then that is a naive answer. Answering back with a good response stating are reasons for some of the criticism isn't naive. If I was naive then I would think I was the best writer in the world and wouldn't bother seeking the opinions of others I am in fact the opposite to that in regards to I like to know what everyone thinks especially people in the industry or writing for the industry because your going to be the harsh critics and I love you all for it. Everyone needs criticism, with out criticism you can't develop and become even better.

Sorry to sound over-critical.

What I will say is hugely positive is that you are writing what you find funny. This is massively important. What you will start to do as you get a little more experience, is to write what you find funny, but with more of an awareness of your audience in mind. It sounds ridiculous to state that comedy writers produce material without thinking of their audience - but actually it does happen a lot.

A lot of material I personally find the funniest in my first draft scripts often doesn't make it to the submission draft. This is because, whilst it might seem brilliant in my own head, I can objectively see why an audience might not get it - or even if they do, why it's not that funny. Other times it is too induldgent and holds up the thrust of a scene. Taking this approach is not to tear the heart out of your writing, or to "sell out" in the hope of an audience (or a sale).

Taking a cold and objective approach with your material - "killing your babies" as some writers put it - is the only way to get better. I enjoy writing funny stuff, but it helps to be the biggest bastard of a critic towards your own work.

As regards is it funny? If one person tells me I'm a duck, I can shrug it off as absurd and ridiculous. If one hundred people tell me I'm a duck, I at least have to consider the possibility that I'm a duck. (Hate this weird metaphor, but it serves its purpose.)

Again, all the best.

(On that note I shall scuttle away from the Critique section, where I have no business; and return to pulling an "all-nighter" to get a new script ready to send by the morning.)

I would have to agree with the general consensus.

Excellent production, and good on you for actually getting off your backside and bringing your idea to life. However, it just isn't funny. Not even in the slightest. So unless you market this as a piece on how not to write comedy. I really can't see the idea going much further.

I watched a bit of Part 1, but I couldn't get into it. (sorry)

All I could see was a 6th former in shades wandering around a school/college and another 6th former pretending to be a soldier, shouting a lot.

It's the kind of thing you'd see in the Comic Strip Presents rehearsal rooms and/or in comedy clubs, pre-1982, before they polished their act and did the TV series. Students shouting a lot and doing silly things, but not actually being that funny.

I couldn't hear much of what was being said either.

Sorry, but I couldn't see anything funny about it.
It meandered along without a hook nor a storyline.
Oh, and it lacked wit and subtext; two necessary ingredients.

Study the following line that I do believe Timbo typed earlier in this thread to SootyJ:

"you have taken abuse that would have had David Banner nipping into Burtons"

That line made me die!
And that's what you need. Sharp witty lines like that.
Well, not exactly lines like that. More like lines that your two characters would realistically come out with.

Mr Shades is a cocky self-obsessed tosser, so he could borrow Cat's line (from Red Dwarf) "I'm so attractive, I even make men wet."

I know what you're going to say. You're going to ask me to watch the rest, but I'm merely reprsenting an "average viewer" who has lost interest and switched over to BBC1.

A TV show MUST hook someone more or less straight away. If it doesn't you lose viewers. Sorry, but it just didn't grab me.

And no, it's nothing to do with age, demographics or anything, because if a "yoof" comedy, for example, was good, lots of different ages would watch it, not just it's target audience.

If the theory of demographics was true, Only Fools would have only been watched by dodgy older brothers, thick younger brothers and granddads.

You say you're going to make an improved version. Well, shouldn't you shoot the better one first and make it as perfect as possible BEFORE sending out to prod cos?

Anyway, good luck with the project.

I know none of this is what you wanted to hear. Thing is, when you throw your work to the insatiable hunger of the mighty lion that is Critique, you do so at your own risk.

Just as objects in the mirror may appear closer than they are, you are certain of receiving bad commments as well as good ones. This is Critique. It is not Massage One's Ego.

The first time I put something into critique (my first sitcom) it was absolutely ripped to shreds.
Did I complain? No, I listened, took all the advice on board, then went back to the drawing board.
"I'll show them!" I yelled.

No one is out to get you. In fact, they're all taking time out to give honest feedback for free. They are a great bunch here.

Looking back, I was so glad I didn't send it out to prodcos first.

Quote: Tim Walker @ June 21 2009, 11:04 PM BST

Sorry to sound over-critical.

What I will say is hugely positive is that you are writing what you find funny. This is massively important. What you will start to do as you get a little more experience, is to write what you find funny, but with more of an awareness of your audience in mind. It sounds ridiculous to state that comedy writers produce material without thinking of their audience - but actually it does happen a lot.

A lot of material I personally find the funniest in my first draft scripts often doesn't make it to the submission draft. This is because, whilst it might seem brilliant in my own head, I can objectively see why an audience might not get it - or even if they do, why it's not that funny. Other times it is too induldgent and holds up the thrust of a scene. Taking this approach is not to tear the heart out of your writing, or to "sell out" in the hope of an audience (or a sale).

Taking a cold and objective approach with your material - "killing your babies" as some writers put it - is the only way to get better. I enjoy writing funny stuff, but it helps to be the biggest bastard of a critic towards your own work.

As regards is it funny? If one person tells me I'm a duck, I can shrug it off as absurd and ridiculous. If one hundred people tell me I'm a duck, I at least have to consider the possibility that I'm a duck. (Hate this weird metaphor, but it serves its purpose.)

Again, all the best.

(On that note I shall scuttle away from the Critique section, where I have no business; and return to pulling an "all-nighter" to get a new script ready to send by the morning.)

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I take your point that there must be something wrong with the humour if so many people say so yet I think there are moments in the show that are funny although they are mainly subtle gags.

The thing we will do is work harder on having more sure-fire gags alongside our exiting subtle gags. I feel we are in a good position at the moment because we are still in the earlier stages of writing and we can build on what we have got with the feedback we have received to make a even better opening episode.

Quote: steven @ June 21 2009, 11:09 PM BST

I would have to agree with the general consensus.

Excellent production, and good on you for actually getting off your backside and bringing your idea to life. However, it just isn't funny. Not even in the slightest. So unless you market this as a piece on how not to write comedy. I really can't see the idea going much further.

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Thanks for the production vales compliment and yes it is good we are making comedy rather then just talking about it. We see the idea going somewhere and it will go someone, there are issues which will be addressed but because we haven't created a pitch perfect DEMO pilot it doesn't mean we give up on the project.

Like I stated earlier, a lot of these issue we knew about so in the time this has been shot and when it went out we have been working on improving these issues which we will put into the actual pilot/episode one of the series which we are spending the next few months writing.

Quote: Mikey Jackson @ June 22 2009, 1:39 AM BST

I watched a bit of Part 1, but I couldn't get into it. (sorry)

All I could see was a 6th former in shades wandering around a school/college and another 6th former pretending to be a soldier, shouting a lot.

It's the kind of thing you'd see in the Comic Strip Presents rehearsal rooms and/or in comedy clubs, pre-1982, before they polished their act and did the TV series. Students shouting a lot and doing silly things, but not actually being that funny.

I couldn't hear much of what was being said either.

Sorry, but I couldn't see anything funny about it.
It meandered along without a hook nor a storyline.
Oh, and it lacked wit and subtext; two necessary ingredients.

Study the following line that I do believe Timbo typed earlier in this thread to SootyJ:

"you have taken abuse that would have had David Banner nipping into Burtons"

That line made me die!
And that's what you need. Sharp witty lines like that.
Well, not exactly lines like that. More like lines that your two characters would realistically come out with.

Mr Shades is a cocky self-obsessed tosser, so he could borrow Cat's line (from Red Dwarf) "I'm so attractive, I even make men wet."

I know what you're going to say. You're going to ask me to watch the rest, but I'm merely reprsenting an "average viewer" who has lost interest and switched over to BBC1.

A TV show MUST hook someone more or less straight away. If it doesn't you lose viewers. Sorry, but it just didn't grab me.

And no, it's nothing to do with age, demographics or anything, because if a "yoof" comedy, for example, was good, lots of different ages would watch it, not just it's target audience.

If the theory of demographics was true, Only Fools would have only been watched by dodgy older brothers, thick younger brothers and granddads.

You say you're going to make an improved version. Well, shouldn't you shoot the better one first and make it as perfect as possible BEFORE sending out to prod cos?

Anyway, good luck with the project.

I know none of this is what you wanted to hear. Thing is, when you throw your work to the insatiable hunger of the mighty lion that is Critique, you do so at your own risk.

Just as objects in the mirror may appear closer than they are, you are certain of receiving bad commments as well as good ones. This is Critique. It is not Massage One's Ego.

The first time I put something into critique (my first sitcom) it was absolutely ripped to shreds.
Did I complain? No, I listened, took all the advice on board, then went back to the drawing board.
"I'll show them!" I yelled.

No one is out to get you. In fact, they're all taking time out to give honest feedback for free. They are a great bunch here.

Looking back, I was so glad I didn't send it out to prodcos first.

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It's perfectly ok not to watch all of it as if it was on TV you wouldn't watch all of it if you didn't like it would you?

Thank you very much for the Comic Strip Presents compassion. My role is slightly Rik Mayall esc. Although you didn't really mean it as a compliment I take it as one because all though the show isn't fully complete yet I think there is a spark of something to make it into a better show, everyone's got to remember that this is the DEMO pilot, really we didn't need to release this at all we could have waited till we recorded the next pilot which will be even better but we decided to release this one because we are pretty proud of it and we think we can make the next pilot even better with the help of people given us views on the demo pilot.

I also like your comparison of The Cat and Keith as they do share so similar traits as does the relationship between Keith and Mark with Rimmer and Lister which I want to develop into something that really works.

"You say you're going to make an improved version. Well, shouldn't you shoot the better one first and make it as perfect as possible BEFORE sending out to prod cos?"

Well yes and no to that question, this pilot is our pilot to get the locations, characters and the look sorted in our mind before we make the proper pilot but to make a proper pilot we need proper feedback which we have been given before this critique so in that time we have worked out what needs changing and have put this with our covering letter to producers so they are aware of these problems and because we bought them up before they did they have been looking at the positives which has lead to a few good responses for us.

Thanks for taking a look and thanks for the feedback. We are soon to do a few interviews that we should be releasing on to the net this will explain a lot of our reasons for certain decisions and it will also give people some insight on what the series and pilot will be like.

Thanks for all the feedback your be pleased to know myself and my co-writer Dan Pearce are currently writing the opening episode of the series with you feedback and our personal grievances with the demo pilot being taken into account. The pilot episode 'Take A Chance On Me' will be shot in the Autumn this year and will hopefully be out by the end of the year for you all to see.

Thanks again
James Cotter

Well, like I said, I wish you the best of luck.
And I do admire your persistence, which I'm sure will get your foot in a lot of doors.

Quote: Mikey Jackson @ June 22 2009, 11:22 PM BST

Well, like I said, I wish you the best of luck.
And I do admire your persistence, which I'm sure will get your foot in a lot of doors.

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Thanks. The way things are going at the moment I'll be warring steel-capped boots by the end of the week

Just thought I'll let you all know that the Outtakes from the demo pilot Thank You For The Music is now out on YouTube.

Are there any other extras in the pipeline? Cast commentaries, etc?

Quote: Dolly Dagger @ September 9 2009, 2:49 PM BST

Are there any other extras in the pipeline? Cast commentaries, etc?

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