With my mind still reeling in the wake of The Cafe, I'm close to proposing a 'Can the English still do comedy?' thread. I've tried every current homegrown suggestion that's come up on these boards and I can't find anything that holds my attention, let alone leaves me struggling to breathe the way Sunny, Parks & Rec and Community do.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ December 1 2011, 9:08 AM GMTYes, people are influenced by things that came before them. I seem to recall reading that The Office came out of Gervais doing a character, known as 'Seedy Boss' (Or similar) whilst at work to amuse others. The Office was then developed around the character.
I was more going on about the style rather than content of the show. I'm sure Gervais would agree the style of The Office comes pretty much entirely from Larry Sanders. He even says here:http://www.rickygervais.com/uncut.php
"The Office owes more to Larry Sanders than anything British, just in terms of realism."
Reaffirmed my view as well that British sitcoms were only really ever good in the 70's and 80's.
Quote: Alfred @ December 1 2011, 12:04 PM GMTI was more going on about the style rather than content of the show. I'm sure Gervais would agree the style of The Office comes pretty much entirely from Larry Sanders. He even says here:http://www.rickygervais.com/uncut.php
"The Office owes more to Larry Sanders than anything British, just in terms of realism."
Reaffirmed my view as well that British sitcoms were only really ever good in the 70's and 80's.
I'm not saying he hasn't been influenced by that show; as you say he's clearly said so enough times himself.
As for Brit sitcoms since the 80's, how about, just for example, Peep Show, or Spaced, or Father Ted, or I'm Alan Partridge, or, well, The Office. All classic sitcoms that, if I were to list my favourites, would nestle alongside Arrested Development, Seinfeld, 30 Rock, and so on.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ December 1 2011, 1:23 PM GMTI'm not saying he hasn't been influenced by that show; as you say he's clearly said so enough times himself.
As for Brit sitcoms since the 80's, how about, just for example, Peep Show, or Spaced, or Father Ted, or I'm Alan Partridge, or, well, The Office. All classic sitcoms that, if I were to list my favourites, would nestle alongside Arrested Development, Seinfeld, 30 Rock, and so on.
I'd almost definitely beg to differ placing anyone of those British sitcoms alongside Seinfeld. I don't use the word seminal lightly. But if you can claim Seinfeld is seminal (as I do), then the word seminal should have a very different meaning.
Quote: Alfred @ December 1 2011, 1:42 PM GMTI'd almost definitely beg to differ placing anyone of those British sitcoms alongside Seinfeld. I don't use the word seminal lightly. But if you can claim Seinfeld is seminal (as I do), then the word seminal should have a very different meaning.
Seinfeld is my favourite sitcom, it stands above all others for me. But below that, they would all be in the mix.
For me, I'd agree Seinfeld is a big cut above. I'd find it difficult to choose between that and Larry Sanders for me. But both seminal shows. Larry Sanders was a start for the single-camera style and some of the shows you mentioned subscribe to that sensibility. It was truly innovative and consistent throughout six seasons. Gary Shandling is amazing though as well his sitcom before, It's Gary Shandlings Show ,one could argue was a pre-cursor to Seinfeld, as well as the Cosby Show.
Partridge, Peep Show and The Office would all have got their style from the US not to say they're not as good because of it, we haven't had any seminal shows since the 70's-80's, that's why I'm not surprised great shows like The Thick of It borrow heavily from good US shows instead of our 90's shows. Those British sitcoms are great shows, but I'd still say the best US sitcoms are slightly above in the mix because as I've said before are of a higher quality. I'm not too fond of 30 rock, but I'd choose Arrested Development above any of those.
Are there any other sitcoms from either side of the Atlantic that have as much plot as Arrested Development? In terms of letting the viewer hang and not giving anything away until tying loose ends together after entire seasons it's more like The Wire or Breaking Bad than anything comedy based!
Quote: Vince Ives @ December 1 2011, 4:57 PM GMTAre there any other sitcoms from either side of the Atlantic that have as much plot as Arrested Development? In terms of letting the viewer hang and not giving anything away until tying loose ends together after entire seasons it's more like The Wire or Breaking Bad than anything comedy based!
Exactly. It's some pretty amazing comedy for that reason. As with Breaking Bad, another show that isn't even a comedy that proves good US TV has a brilliant sense of humour and can 'do' comedy. I think Breaking Bad is hysterical at times, in my view black comedy is comedy of the highest order. Also, this gives me the chance to say The Wire is the best TV drama ever made :-)
Quote: Alfred @ December 1 2011, 2:40 PM GMTFor me, I'd agree Seinfeld is a big cut above. I'd find it difficult to choose between that and Larry Sanders for me. But both seminal shows. Larry Sanders was a start for the single-camera style and some of the shows you mentioned subscribe to that sensibility. It was truly innovative and consistent throughout six seasons. Gary Shandling is amazing though as well his sitcom before, It's Gary Shandlings Show ,one could argue was a pre-cursor to Seinfeld, as well as the Cosby Show.
Partridge, Peep Show and The Office would all have got their style from the US not to say they're not as good because of it, we haven't had any seminal shows since the 70's-80's, that's why I'm not surprised great shows like The Thick of It borrow heavily from good US shows instead of our 90's shows. Those British sitcoms are great shows, but I'd still say the best US sitcoms are slightly above in the mix because as I've said before are of a higher quality. I'm not too fond of 30 rock, but I'd choose Arrested Development above any of those.
I'm not sure what qualifies as 'seminal' for you, but some of the British shows I mentioned are most certainly of the highest quality; Partridge is one for the ages, it's a very important show in the history of sitcom.
Also, Larry Sanders was not the first single camera sitcom.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ December 1 2011, 6:51 PM GMTI'm not sure what qualifies as 'seminal' for you, but some of the British shows I mentioned are most certainly of the highest quality; Partridge is one for the ages, it's a very important show in the history of sitcom.
Also, Larry Sanders was not the first single camera sitcom.
The dictionary says 'seminal' is groundbreaking, pioneering, original, innovative; major, important. I'm happy to go with any of them. Don't get me wrong I love Partridge, but I don't think he's seminal so I'm naturally going to think that's quite an overstatement. The character himself perhaps, but not the sitcom. To be honest I think if Coogan and Iannucci were to make the same programme today, they'd make it quite differently.
I don't know why you'd make a comment like that and not follow-up on it. I'm not 100% sure what the first single camera sitcom was. I didn't say it was the first. I said it was a start for the single-camera style sitcom. I'm sure there were sitcoms that used literally one single camera before Larry Sanders. It depends what you want to call single camera as well, I tend to associate it with hand-held camera use, no laugh track with that improv behind the scenes feeling, so I tend link The Office and Larry Sanders more than Extras and Larry Sanders, which although have similarities, aren't as strong.
But if Larry Sanders wasn't the first 'single-camera' style sitcom, I can assure you it certainly marked the start for a new style of sitcom, which influenced many other shows. That's an understatement as well. There wasn't anything like the style of Larry Sanders on TV before it.
Quote: Alfred @ December 1 2011, 7:16 PM GMTI don't know why you'd make a comment like that and not follow-up on it.
It didn't need followed up on, it was just a statement of fact.
Quote: Alfred @ December 1 2011, 7:16 PM GMTTo be honest I think if Coogan and Iannucci were to make the same programme today, they'd make it quite differently.
Perhaps they would, I'm not sure what sort of a point you're making there. They have, of course, recently made the internet partridge series.
Quote: Alfred @ December 1 2011, 7:16 PM GMTDon't get me wrong I love Partridge, but I don't think he's seminal so I'm naturally going to think that's quite an overstatement.
Not for me, top five sitcom easy.
Quote: Alfred @ December 1 2011, 7:16 PM GMTBut if Larry Sanders wasn't the first 'single-camera' style sitcom, I can assure you it certainly marked the start for a new style of sitcom, which influenced many other shows. That's an understatement as well. There wasn't anything like the style of Larry Sanders on TV before it.
It's an important and innovative show, yes.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ December 1 2011, 7:28 PM GMTIt didn't need followed up on, it was just a statement of fact.
Perhaps they would, I'm not sure what sort of a point you're making there. They have, of course, recently made the internet partridge series.
Not for me, top five sitcom easy.
It's an important and innovative show, yes.
A-ha a smart alec eh? Well you might want to read over what I said before letting loose a statement of FACT. I said it marked a new style of sitcom (just explained what the 'single-camera' style is for me). My point with Partridge is that is wasn't perfect, although it was very good, it wasn't perfect for me, therefore not seminal. That's just me though. I've just explained my reasons for Larry Sanders being one of the most important shows in the history of sitcom, I don't see how Partridge matches that, therefore an overstatement. But whatever.
Something tells me you perhaps haven't seen a great deal of Larry Sanders and feel the need to be pedantic for being pedantic's sake, but are now just agreeing with it being important and innovative as there's not much else to say.
Quote: Alfred @ December 1 2011, 7:31 PM GMTA-ha a smart alec eh? Well you might want to read over what I said before letting loose a statement of FACT. I said it marked a new style of sitcom (just explained what the 'single-camera' style is for me). My point with Partridge is that is wasn't perfect, although it was very good, it wasn't perfect for me, therefore not seminal. That's just me though. I've just explained my reasons for Larry Sanders being one of the most important shows in the history of sitcom, I don't see how Partridge matches that, therefore an overstatement. But whatever.
Something tells me you perhaps haven't seen a great deal of Larry Sanders and feel the need to be pedantic for being pedantic's sake, but are now just agreeing with it being important and innovative as there's not much else to say.
Not sure why you felt the need to call me a smart alec, or pedantic.
At no point have I said anything negative about your buddy Larry Sanders, it's a really great show, I like it a lot, it was innovative, what else would you like me to say exactly? My pointing out it wasn't the first single camera sitcom is true, just because you then have your own narrowed down take on what that means to you personally doesn't make it any less true.
Also, I'm allowed to regard Partridge as highly as I do, even if you think it doesn't fit into your own parameters for a 'seminal' show. Everyone has their own favourites, it doesn't have to be stretching the boundries of what sitcom can do to be a classic.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ December 1 2011, 8:19 PM GMTNot sure why you felt the need to call me a smart alec. Or to call me pedantic, you're getting a little childish there. At no point have I said anything negative about Larry Sanders, it's a great show, I like it a lot, it was innovative, what else would you like me to say exactly? My pointing out it wasn't the first single camera sitcom is true, just because you then have your own narrowed down take on what that means to you personally doesn't make it any less true.
I think breaking down things I've said and replying after each passage is a tad more childish and smart-alec-ish than a normal response which I've tried each time. Generally I think when I said 'single-camera' style people wouldn't actually take it literally. I haven't narrowed down what I meant either, I always intended to say it for how it was meant, 'the single camera, reality-based, non laugh-track comedy' (which it certainly was the first of) I should have said? So yes, I do think it's slightly pedantic. I'll just assume people don't know what 'single-camera' style means next time when referring to modern sitcoms.
I just mentioned that Partridge thing again just to see what you may say on why it's an important show in the history of sitcom, it's not like I'm close-minded I'm just interested to see your take on it. But I haven't heard anything yet.
But meh, wasn't expecting to agree with anyone in the peaceful domain which is an internet forum.
Quote: Alfred @ December 1 2011, 8:38 PM GMTI think breaking down things I've said and replying after each passage is a tad more childish and smart-alec-ish than a normal response which I've tried each time.
Sheesh.
It was quoted like that as I was responding to each point directly; if that's smart-alec-y and childish then I certainly am.