Quote: AJGO @ January 10 2012, 12:57 PM GMThttp://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2012/jan/10/frankie-boyle-scottish-laws-hatred
I loved reading the comments on the Guardian website. 'I have very little time for this man', 'this man is an idiot', 'his jokes are tasteless and offensive'.
In fact, they had so little time for Frankie Boyle and his opinions, they read the article from beginning to end, quoted bits of it and then posted on the Guardian website. 
Quote: Tim Walker @ November 28 2011, 2:30 PM GMTThis is a complete misconception. For examlple, people with Down's Syndrome have just as much variation in facial and other characteristics as anyone else. The problem is that "normal" members of society tend only to visually identify the more distinctive features which relate to their Down's. To their family members and friends a person with Down's will be as distinctively identifiable as you are to people who know you. Jimmy Carr might well as made a joke about the Chinese all looking the same, because that is made on the same misconception. Of course, he wouldn't make a Chinese joke, because that would be racist and offensive.
In an ideal world no creed or culture with perceived "distinctive features" would be immune from humourous comment regardless of whether these characteristics have any sound basis in reality or not.
But for as long as the intention is humour rather than malice then there doesn't seem to be any logical basis for offence? Frankie Boyle's wisecrack about Down's Syndrome kids wasn't terribly witty (IMHO it wasn't funny at all), although I'm pretty sure he intended to be funny rather than offensive.
Maybe we have to be wary of protesting too much about them things as in our mad rush to protect the more vulnerable communities we may inadvertently be patronising them, and that in itself might be even more offensive than any feeble jokes about them.
Quote: Allan OB @ January 31 2012, 7:48 AM GMTalthough I'm pretty sure he intended to be funny rather than offensive.
Well that's sort of his job.
I just wish Boyle et al would make more of an effort.
Quote: sootyj @ January 31 2012, 8:52 AM GMTWell that's sort of his job.
I just wish Boyle et al would make more of an effort.
I agree. Boyle has genuine comic talent, but even the furniture cringes when he is in crass mode.
Quote: Allan OB @ January 31 2012, 7:48 AM GMTMaybe we have to be wary of protesting too much about them things as in our mad rush to protect the more vulnerable communities we may inadvertently be patronising them, and that in itself might be even more offensive than any feeble jokes about them.
Quite. Very well said.
Not really. I can see the argument in relation to Life's Too Short, but the criticising the likes of Carr and Boyle providing lazy ammunition for bullies is not being patronising, it is just hoping for common decency.
Quote: Aaron @ January 31 2012, 2:10 PM GMTQuite. Very well said.
And there in lies the problem...
Where is the line drawn? To refuse to joke is to create a special status that leads to issolation. And certainly with the paranoia around Islamophobia, that can even still voices of protest within their own community.
But I don't know some groups are more vulnerable than others, more in need of society's help and support.
It's also important to note that whilst Bernard Manning was making racist jokes there were other black comics on the circuit. Whilst Love Thy Neighbour may have had racist jokes, it also had black comedians giving as good as they got.
The same can't be said of people with learning disabilities. Generally the humour traffic about them is strictly one way.
Certainly in the UK anyway.
Quote: Timbo @ January 31 2012, 2:17 PM GMTNot really. I can see the argument in relation to Life's Too Short, but the criticising the likes of Carr and Boyle providing lazy ammunition for bullies is not being patronising, it is just hoping for common decency.
And a little bit of politeness.
Quote: Timbo @ January 31 2012, 2:17 PM GMTNot really. I can see the argument in relation to Life's Too Short, but the criticising the likes of Carr and Boyle providing lazy ammunition for bullies is not being patronising, it is just hoping for common decency.
No, you miss the point slightly. There's a difference between objecting to something on the grounds of common offence, and beginning to second guess what is going to cause offence. The former is relatively clear, the latter is patronising, and it's the latter that people all too often slip into. As Allan's original quote said, we must be wary.
Quote: sootyj @ January 31 2012, 2:23 PM GMTAnd there in lies the problem...
Where is the line drawn? To refuse to joke is to create a special status that leads to isolation. And certainly with the paranoia around Islamophobia, that can even still voices of protest within their own community.
But I don't know some groups are more vulnerable than others, more in need of society's help and support.
Sadly, it just depends on which group is vocal and cloying enough to catch the tabloids' attention.
Ok Aaron well the following groups have been offended
1 People I know who are or are related to people with learning disabilities.
2 Advocacy organisations for people with learning disability such as Mencap, the NAS all of whom represent their members opinions.
So I guess that's not second guessing.
It's not just the "offence industry" on this, albeit they are there. It's real people, who felt hurt.
Quote: sootyj @ January 31 2012, 2:23 PM GMTBut I don't know some groups are more vulnerable than others, more in need of societies help and support.
I can sort of understand your concerns sooty and that by condoning the jokes of Boyle, you are in some way giving a green light for the scum to attack the vulnerable.
But here are three things to consider -
1. For every Frankie Boyle, there are 10 squillion Michael McIntyres on the telly box with a thousand times the coverage.
2. The scum don't need Frankie Boyle to give them permission to attack the vulnerable. The scum always prey on those they perceive as weak and have done so since civilisation began.
3. Demonising or banning Frankie Boyle will not stop the ignorant from persecuting others.
Quote: sootyj @ January 31 2012, 2:23 PM GMTWhilst Love Thy Neighbour may have had racist jokes, it also had black comedians giving as good as they got.
Your own point reinforced to some extent: Love Thy Neighbour had almost as many racially based jokes with Eddie, the white character, as the butt, as it did with black Bill on the receiving end. Yet which colour is it remembered to victimise?
Good point but not the point I'm making
My point would be if there was a standup with Downse Syndrome making ginger alkie jokes about Boyle.
But there isn't. Hence why this situation is a little diferent.
nb for what it's worth most of the Caribean colleagues over 40 I worked with, took far more delight in the white guy getting slammed. He sought of represented the every day racism they faced.
Quote: sootyj @ January 31 2012, 2:32 PM GMTOk Aaron well the following groups have been offended
1 People I know who are or are related to people with learning disabilities.
2 Advocacy organisations for people with learning disability such as Mencap, the NAS all of whom represent their members opinions.
So I guess that's not second guessing.
It's not just the "offence industry" on this, albeit they are there. It's real people, who felt hurt.
Sure. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm not referring to any specific cases. Those you are harking back to are clearly in the former camp I noted, where it's plain to see that some will be upset, offended or hurt.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ January 31 2012, 2:32 PM GMTI can sort of understand your concerns sooty and that by condoning the jokes of Boyle, you are in some way giving a green light for the scum to attack the vulnerable.
But here are three things to consider -
1. For every Frankie Boyle, there are 10 squillion Michael McIntyres on the telly box with a thousand times the coverage.
2. The scum don't need Frankie Boyle to give them permission to attack the vulnerable. The scum always prey on those they perceive as weak and have done so since civilisation began.
3. Demonising or banning Frankie Boyle will not stop the ignorant from persecuting others.
Language and comedy are 2 hugely powerful mediums. If they weren't then renegade why are you a comedy writer?
The two normalise human interaction. Make you feel better about your opinion.
So they do count. Hence why the guy at work still making racist jokes is generally seen as a bit of a cock.
Carr, Boyle etc maybe few in number, but they have huge followings. And they are influential.
I don't suggest either be banned, demonised chased into the outer realms of cable TV.
But rather atleast the offence they caused be recognised. And maybe it's not unreasonable for them to look a little at their material?
Quote: sootyj @ January 31 2012, 2:37 PM GMTMy point would be if there was a standup with Downse Syndrome making ginger alkie jokes about Boyle.
I think people would laugh at him, not with him.
That's not true, but there have been disabled comedians in the past and the patronising laughter they get from the audience - even when their jokes are well shit - is quite embarrassing.
Plus, for some reason, people look down on me when I heckle a disabled comedian, bunch of socially aware killjoys.
It's political correctness gone mad! What's next? Renaming 'Russ Abbott's Comedy Madhouse' as 'Russ Abbott's Comedy Psychiatric Unit'?, etc., etc., ad infinitum.
