I read the news today oh boy! Page 706

Renegade have you ever read one of Rushdie's books? He's f**king awful.

As for Aghanistan 'tis a complex question. Unlike Iraq or Iran where there seems to be some desire to have a reasonably balanced rule of law and government. That has to date managed to keep the very worst excesses under control.

It seems a sizable amount of the populace is rather keen on executions in football stadiums, women out of public life and a love for endless scrapping. From Alexander the Great, via the British and Soviet Empire. Every one who trys to prevent their delightful culture of sodomy, sexism and smuggling gets confused and a very bloody nose.

And the plans for withdrawal leaving the vile Karzi in charge (who's already talking to the Taliban). Acknowledge this.

Hell OBL and AQ were pretty shocked that when the US invaded their supposed Muslim brothers basically just turned on them in large numbers.

Basically the whole future policy on Afghanistan can be broken into 2 easy lessons.

1 Watch "The Man who would be king."
2 Drop bombs on the bits that irritate you.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ March 19 2012, 12:53 PM GMT

You'll forgive me if I don't support your liberal views on The War On Terror, but it is not in my self interest to be ruled by Sharia law.

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This isn't the first war on terror nor will it be the last.

Again and again countries that steel themselves and apply their own laws succeed.

Book burning and death threats frankly deserve harsh prison sentences. I'd like Boris Johnson forced to go and throw tomatoes at any mosque. He made a patronising melting pot visit to. Which turned out to be a haven of hate speak and fundraising for Jihad.

He could carry them in the basket on one of his Boris bikes.

I'm always reminded of visiting Dublin and reading up about the Easter Uprising afterwards. Britain beat a disorganised revoloutinary movement, which had hi ideals and lousy strategy. If they'd left it at that. Had fair trials and punishments probably there'd be no independent Ireland.

But they shot the leaders persecuted anyone who made resonable demands. And were left with 2 far more ruthless leaders and a revolutinary movement who drove them out in a terrible bloody war.

Time and time again. You kill one group and the next one is worse.

The buffoonish PLO and PFLP were replaced by the far more lethal Hamas and Hezbollah in Lebanon and Palestine.

LAK the replacement for AQ in Pakistan are the one's who keep the Pakistani government out of almost half the country. They're also the ones most likely to get their hands on one of those van bombs.

Quote: sootyj @ March 19 2012, 1:04 PM GMT

Renegade have you ever read one of Rushdie's books?

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Come on sooty, you know I can't read, I can barely write. Still, if his books are as bad as you say, then maybe he should be murdered and his writings burned on British streets - wait, no, the opposite of that. I'm all for some gentle ribbing in Critique, but that's taking it too far.

I don't suppose you remember all of the celebrations in Muslim countries that went on after 9/11? The towel heads all came out into their town squares to laugh, chant, burn American flags and basically applaud the deaths of 3000 innocent civilians.

It was almost as if someone had given them the green light to use their religion to brutalise and murder anyone who wasn't part of their backwards, medeival and utterly oppressive culture.

Guess it kind of backfired on them.

Well that was kinda sad.

I think though some of the time when you hold the moral hi ground. By which I mean arresting, trying and issolating groups. It's surprisingly how succesful this can be.

ETA, the IRA, the West bank all pacified because in the end they couldn't stand upto a reasonable but forceful government. And in the US you can add SLA, the Weathermen and others.

Quote: sootyj @ March 19 2012, 11:05 AM GMT

and of course the treatment of poor Bradley.

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F**k that traitorous bastard. If it were up to me he'd be in front of a firing squad right now.

Quote: sootyj @ March 19 2012, 1:27 PM GMT

I think though some of the time when you hold the moral hi ground. By which I mean arresting, trying and issolating groups. It's surprisingly how succesful this can be.

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Ok, let's see: how do you arrest and try tens of thousands of Taliban, al Qaeda and their like-minded brethren?

Step 1 - You must be able to physically detain them.

Step 2 - In order to physically detain them, you must be in the same country as they are.

Step 3 - They don't want you in their country, so they attack you.

Step 4 - You're being attacked, so you have to fight back.

Step 5 - Hey look, it's a war!

Step 6 - Commence to rounding up and arresting the terrorists.

Hmmm, sound familiar?

It's worth noting that the wars wouldn't have taken place if Saddam and his regime had scooted off somewhere to live their lives in exile and if the Taliban had handed over bin Laden and his minions. They had a choice to stop the invasions but instead chose to fight.

Quote: sootyj @ March 19 2012, 1:13 PM GMT

I'm always reminded of visiting Dublin and reading up about the Easter Uprising afterwards. Britain beat a disorganised revoloutinary movement, which had hi ideals and lousy strategy. If they'd left it at that. Had fair trials and punishments probably there'd be no independent Ireland.

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The point about oppression is that if you do it you have to do it thoroughly. It is a bit like badger culling. Do it half-arsed and it just makes the problem worse, as In Ireland. Our western democratic societies just don't have the stomach to go the full Saddam. Thankfully.

Quote: DaButt @ March 19 2012, 2:17 PM GMT

It's worth noting that the wars wouldn't have taken place if Saddam and his regime had scooted off somewhere to live their lives in exile and if the Taliban had handed over bin Laden and his onions.

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Onions are one of my least favourite foods. I'm all for genocide when it comes to onions.

Quote: DaButt @ March 19 2012, 2:17 PM GMT

F**k that traitorous bastard. If it were up to me he'd be in front of a firing squad right now.

Ok, let's see: how do you arrest and try tens of thousands of Taliban, al Qaeda and their like-minded brethren?

Step 1 - You must be able to physically detain them.

Step 2 - In order to physically detain them, you must be in the same country as they are.

Step 3 - They don't want you in their country, so they attack you.

Step 4 - You're being attacked, so you have to fight back.

Step 5 - Hey look, it's a war!

Step 6 - Commence to rounding up and arresting the terrorists.

Hmmm, sound familiar?

It's worth noting that the wars wouldn't have taken place if Saddam and his regime had scooted off somewhere to live their lives in exile and if the Taliban had handed over bin Laden and his minions. They had a choice to stop the invasions but instead chose to fight.

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You see the problem is the more badly you behave, the more you anger them the more they recruit. Most of the 2003 Taliban and AQ are dead, in hiding, running kebab shops in south London. So who are shooting at the coalition?

New recruits who will be endlessly replaced. Until their organisation is replaced by a newer more deadly, more radical version. e.g. AQ for LAK or FATAH for Hamas.

Where as the post war Lebanese government who are embedded in the regional peace protest; blocked Almajilabad from visiting the Israeli border and demanded Syrian troops left. Similarly PLO police forces in the Westbank stop most rocket attacks and arrest Hamas supporters.

And the idea of the IRA getting support from the Irish government is a nonsense.

It takes time. It means taking hits and doing little in response. But in the end you know it actually works.

Quote: Tursiops @ March 19 2012, 2:25 PM GMT

The point about oppression is that if you do it you have to do it thoroughly. It is a bit like badger culling. Do it half-arsed and it just makes the problem worse, as In Ireland. Our western democratic societies just don't have the stomach to go the full Saddam. Thankfully.

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And in the end it was the resistance far more than the Allied invasion that finished him off. He was in the end ruling a rather pathetic third of the country. The southern marshes, eastern areas that were more Iranian and the Kurdish mountains had been pretty much independent for years.

And Turkey is still getting hassle for the Armenian genocide, not to mention an ongoing war with Kurdistan it's not realistically winning.

"You don't make peace with your friends, you make peace with your enemies"

Yitzack Rabbin.

Quote: DaButt @ March 19 2012, 2:17 PM GMT

F**k that traitorous bastard. If it were up to me he'd be in front of a firing squad right now.

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I'd give him a medal and a big hug. Revealing that a bored squaddie with a memory stick could publicise most of your secrets?

Be glad you found that out before the Chinese or the Russians did.

Quote: sootyj @ March 19 2012, 3:49 PM GMT

Revealing that a bored squaddie with a memory stick could publicise most of your secrets?

Be glad you found that out before the Chinese or the Russians did.

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Not even close to "most of our secrets." Things he revealed were embarrassing and hurt the nation and its allies but they weren't anything close to the crown jewels. That said, he swore an oath to protect the nation's secrets when he was offered access to them. He was well aware that stealing them could land him in front of a firing squad. Let's face it: those documents did wind up in the hands of the Russians, the Chinese, the Taliban, al Qaeda and every other hostile entity you can name.

Sadly the biggest secret he revealed

Was there was no big secret, no grand strategy

Just a big mess covered in blOod

Quote: sootyj @ March 19 2012, 6:55 PM GMT

Sadly the biggest secret he revealed

Was there was no big secret, no grand strategy

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That ranks right up there with your recent assertion that the 57-year-old bin Laden was an elderly, inconsequential man. You're just tossing out your own opinions and claiming that they're facts.

Ok basing this entirely on what your government has leaked.

1 Bin Laden was found after the identity of the only courier to visit him was revealed by torturing suspects in Guantanomo.
2 This courier visited him once or twice a month and downloaded usb sticks onto the internet.
3 "Al Quaeda" is fighting in Sudan, Somalia, Afghanistan and the Swat valley.
5 Osama Bin Laden's stated aim years before 9/11 was to create a brand for terrorism that could exist independent of any actual organisation or person.
6 Again leaked by your own government. Osama Bin Laden spent considerable time raising bunnies, talking to local kids and watching DVDs.

So this guy is organising a 4 continent insurgency based on smuggling out and reading smuggled in usb sticks once a month? Bollocks. Al Quaeda is no more an authentic brand than a £5 pair of Noke trainers or an ypad.

Frankly the fact that his death lead to Pakistan reducing it's cooperation with America, fighting AQ and cooperating with American resupply operations in Afghanistan. Not to mention hiding its nukes in icecream vans.

Means that even as he burns in hell Osama is laughing at you. His death has done more to make your poor ignorant country unsafe than anything else.

To quote a man far wiser than me "God damn America"

Quote: sootyj @ March 19 2012, 8:29 PM GMT

Means that even as he burns in hell Osama is laughing at you. His death has done more to make your poor ignorant country unsafe than anything else.

To quote a man far wiser than me "God damn America"

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So you just want to be a dick. Fine, I'll refrain from further discussions with you.

Oh I dunno don't take it personally. By America I do only refer to your rotten, murderous government.

You and most of your fellow citizens are alright.

You all just seem to need a big hug.

Quote: DaButt @ March 19 2012, 12:55 AM GMT

The truth hurts, eh?

"We" are no more responsible for the Taliban blowing up kids in a market than "you" are for Hitler killing a few million Jews.

^ There's Godwin's Law sorted for ya.

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Quote: DaButt @ March 19 2012, 8:38 PM GMT

So you just want to be a dick. Fine, I'll refrain from further discussions with you.

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Yeah