Quote: Tim Walker @ October 28 2009, 2:31 PM BSTThe defence seems to be that there's "good" stealing and "bad" stealing. Fair enough, if that makes people feel better about what they're doing...
It's like AIDS...
Quote: Curt @ October 28 2009, 2:31 PM BSTI'm going today to see if I can borrow'n burn a few CDs from the Library.
Shamedly I haven't been in a public library for years.
Quote: Curt @ October 28 2009, 2:31 PM BSTYea Australia has just about everything backwards when it comes to the net. It's too bad because it will hold back the country in the future.
There are countries with much worse internet services than Australia. Australia's problem is that it is so huge and has a small population, so it would not really be economically viable to provide every household in the country with access to cheap unlimited high-speed broadband. But the Australian government is planning to spend about A$45 billion on creating a speedy national broadband network. Unclear how much will be charged per month for unlimited usage.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 28 2009, 2:28 PM BSTHow is legally borrowing a book from a library equivalent to stealing it?
How is it any different? Are we talking about ethics here or just about legality (using a piggy bank is technically a crime, but hardly an issue of ethics).
Every time someone borrows my latest novel from the public library, I lose a sale, exactly the same as if they'd downloaded an ebook version. It may be legal, but it's exactly the same in principle.
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ October 28 2009, 2:29 PM BSTWhat about taping CDs from the library?
Exactly! DVDs etc too!
Quote: Kenneth @ October 28 2009, 2:41 PM BSTThere are countries with much worse internet services than Australia. Australia's problem is that it is so huge and has a small population, so it would not really be economically viable to provide every household in the country with access to cheap unlimited high-speed broadband. But the Australian government is planning to spend about A$45 billion on creating a speedy national broadband network. Unclear how much will be charged per month for unlimited usage.
I'm not trying to disrespect your country or anything but I actually did a lot of media comparisons between Canada and Australia during my undergrad (Media Communications grad). Canada's population is 33,487,208 and its 9,984,670 sq km.
Australia's population is 21,262,641 and it has a total: 7,741,220 sq km.
We are in many ways comparable but what is worrisome about Australia's plan is its decision to monitor and filter internet traffic. That alone slows down the system by a huge amount and breaks with the tradition and in my opinion is in contradiction to the point of it all.
Quote: Moonstone @ October 28 2009, 2:56 PM BSTEvery time someone borrows my latest novel from the public library, I lose a sale, exactly the same as if they'd downloaded an ebook version. It may be legal, but it's exactly the same in principle.
Not it isn't. The library has legally paid for the copy or copies of the book, the publisher is happy, the author is happy. It provides a useful social service and encourages people to read books. It also promotes the author and has a knock-on effect (if they are good) in securing further book sales. It is a legal activity all around. If you are unhappy with the system of libraries then perhaps campaign for "your novel" not to be sold to them or campaign for them to be abolished altogether. They are legal and legitimate, unlike illegal file-sharing sites and users. If file-sharing and torrent site users have no ethical or moral concerns about what they are doing, then why aren't they seeking to argue their legitimate reasons for their activites in court, to the government or through the media?
Talking of principles, do you believe that stealing is wrong or only sometimes wrong? It's really that simple. 
Quote: Curt @ October 28 2009, 2:56 PM BSTI'm not trying to disrespect your country or anything
That's ok. F**k Australia. Especially its government's plan to monitor/filter/censor internet content.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 28 2009, 3:01 PM BSTTalking of principles, do you believe that stealing is wrong or only sometimes wrong? It's really that simple.
I liked it when Robin Hood stole. That was 'good' stealing.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 28 2009, 3:01 PM BSTNot it isn't. The library has legally paid for the copy or copies of the book, the publisher is happy, the author is happy. It provides a useful social service and encourages people to read books. It also promotes the author and has a knock-on effect (if they are good) in securing further book sales. It is a legal activity all around. If you are unhappy with the system of libraries then perhaps campaign for "your novel" not to be sold to them or campaign for them to be abolished altogether. They are legal and legitimate, unlike illegal file-sharing sites and users.
But I would argue that downloads serve exactly the same purpose. Someone had to have paid for the original mp3 or ebook before it was copied for sharing. Actually, speaking from personal experience, I downloaded Goldfrapp's Seventh Tree album and like it so much I wanted an original copy - 1 just for the sake of owning it, and 2 as a way of showing my appreciation of that band. I hadn't bought an album for years prior to that, and would never have done so if I hadn't listened to the download first. I know for a fact I'm not alone in this, which can be seen in sales figures for iTunes etc.
Talking of principles, do you believe that stealing is wrong or only sometimes wrong? It's really that simple.
No, I don't think it is that black and white though, so again we disagree. See above post for some idea of the 'grayness'.
Quote: Kenneth @ October 28 2009, 3:03 PM BSTThat's ok. F**k Australia. Especially its government's plan to monitor/filter/censor internet content.
Well they won't be tha last that's for sure. How threatening the net must be to those in power. They'll censor it to shit by degrees, no doubt about it. There have already been cases. The free world loves freedom, so long as you say and do the right things.
Quote: Moonstone @ October 28 2009, 3:14 PM BSTBut I would argue that downloads serve exactly the same purpose. Someone had to have paid for the original mp3 or ebook before it was copied for sharing. Actually, speaking from personal experience, I downloaded Goldfrapp's Seventh Tree album and like it so much I wanted an original copy - 1 just for the sake of owning it, and 2 as a way of showing my appreciation of that band. I hadn't bought an album for years prior to that, and would never have done so if I hadn't listened to the download first. I know for a fact I'm not alone in this, which can be seen in sales figures for iTunes etc.
So presumably you wouldn't object if there was a system of "try before you buy", in terms of allowing a limited period to listen to a song/album before a digital expiry date? Then you can choose whether or not to purchase and own a legitimate digitised or hard copy CD? Akin to borrowing a book from a library, having to return it on time, then deciding whether you want to go to a bookshop and actually buy your own copy?
Once such a system was set up then all illegal copies would be cracked down upon.
What about that night you stole my innocence, Tim.
There was a "try before you buy" option!! 
Quote: Leevil @ October 28 2009, 3:26 PM BSTWhat about that night you stole my innocence, Tim.
There was a "try before you buy" option!!
You had been a Monkey Boy for too long, it was time you became a Monkey Man. 
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 28 2009, 3:35 PM BSTYou had been a Monkey Boy for too long, it was time you became a Monkey Man.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 28 2009, 3:01 PM BSTNot it isn't. The library has legally paid for the copy or copies of the book, the publisher is happy, the author is happy. It provides a useful social service and encourages people to read books. It also promotes the author and has a knock-on effect (if they are good) in securing further book sales. It is a legal activity all around. If you are unhappy with the system of libraries then perhaps campaign for "your novel" not to be sold to them or campaign for them to be abolished altogether. They are legal and legitimate, unlike illegal file-sharing sites and users. If file-sharing and torrent site users have no ethical or moral concerns about what they are doing, then why aren't they seeking to argue their legitimate reasons for their activites in court, to the government or through the media?
Talking of principles, do you believe that stealing is wrong or only sometimes wrong? It's really that simple.
'My novel' HARD EVIDENCE is book of the month at lots of libraries apparently. You do get roaylties on them too. I have no ideas how much. Just thought I'd throw it in the mix.
Quote: Tim Walker @ October 28 2009, 3:35 PM BSTYou had been a Monkey Boy for too long, it was time you became a Monkey Man.
Yes, sir. *trembles*