Weapons-Grade sarcasm: http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/
I read the news today oh boy! Page 1,598
Quote: Matthew Stott @ 28th May 2014, 11:02 AM BSTWeapons-Grade sarcasm: http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/
I must admit, I am fascinated by the British left's obsession with gun laws in the USA. Why do you care? What's it to you? The sentiment is usually anti-American and yet you want to 'save' them all from themselves?
I'm just wondering why British people feel it's their right to criticise the legal freedoms of another country. Could it be that the British left secretly likes Americans, but similar to wanking, they won't admit it? Do they feel the need to speak due to some form of colonial association - a kind of cultural imperialism if you will? That if only Americans gave up their freedoms and lived like us, they would be 'happy'? (yeah, the Yanks are much more upbeat, positive and optimistic then the piss miserable moaners on this rainy island - trust me).
I've often accused the liberal lefty types of being nothing more then easily led sheep doing exactly what the media tells them to do. The media in this country has told you that American gun rights are out of control, so you dogmatically agree. Even though US gun laws have no impact on your life in any way, shape or form, you feel the need to comment and criticise and impose an opinion based on nothing more then what you've read.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27562915
A man in Belgium ran into a Jewish Museum and shot four people with a rifle, but they're not Americans and the story wasn't in the press every day, so presumably, you don't give a shit.
What a funny old world.
Isn't The Onion American?
R.I.P. Maya Angelou. 
I was just thinking about her last night as well.
The Belgian one was pretty exceptional, the US one is more a disturbing trend.
But the Huff'n'Puff and the Grauniad both seem to be identifying a factor beyond guns. And I think this feels plausible.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-kimmel/americas-angry-white-men_b_4182486.html
It feels plausible but I think there's more to it than that. The US is very much the heartland of mental health research. But it's finance orientated medical system means it's still obsessed with "medical model" mental health treatments. e.g. curing the illness and ergo labelling the uncured as failures.
Which puts it in line tragically with 3rd world approaches.
Where as Europe, Australia is "social model" we probably can't cure you. But lets help you get a flat, money and a place in your community.
So I think poor, paranoid and judgemental treatment of what in most other developed nations would be none-problematic conditions. Turns these angry, young, white men into the tragic killers they become.
Quote: Badge @ 28th May 2014, 2:57 PM BSTIsn't The Onion American?
Isn't America English?
Quote: sootyj @ 28th May 2014, 3:07 PM BSTThe Belgian one was pretty exceptional, the US one is more a disturbing trend.
But the Huff'n'Puff and the Grauniad both seem to be identifying a factor beyond guns. And I think this feels plausible.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-kimmel/americas-angry-white-men_b_4182486.html
I'd go along with this half-arsed race based theory if the Virginia Tech spree killer wasn't South Korean or if the DC Sniper and the Maryland Naval Yard shooters weren't both black. Or if the Fort Worth shooter was called John Smith and not Nidal Hasan.
I've not read the manifesto of Eliot Rodgers, but I would imagine it's the typical vendetta against humanity due to being socially excluded from a clique-y cast system that viewed him as an outsider - which seems to be typical for most of the recent spree killers. Facebook had to take down a tribute page to Nutty McVirgin, which in itself is disturbing as it signifies empathy and support for his actions by other twisted individuals.
I think what we're witnessing is a new form of class warfare, with disenfranchised loners unable to cope with the pressure of 'fitting in' taking the rejection to beyond acceptable levels. The high profile media reportage of these killers provides, in and of itself, a 'solution' to the problems of would be murderers. It also gives added value to their evil deeds by enshrining the horror in celebrity and immortality.
In almost every single case, the individuals were 'red flagged' as having very deep psychological problems and most were being treated. But if there is no run in with the law previously, it won't appear on any background checks. So does the law need to change and what ramifications would this have to data protection and the rights of the individual?
Or we could ban normal, law abiding, sane individuals from owning guns - even the physically disabled ones - because no one is to be trusted by the government ever and individual rights are for suckas and squares.
Quote: Badge @ 28th May 2014, 2:57 PM BSTIsn't The Onion American?
Aren't all the people on this thread commenting about US gun laws British?
You can't red flag mental health issues without creating tragic mistakes, basically psychiatric sciences just aren't that sophisticated. There's thousands if not millions of people in the UK right now who would be similarly red flagged. If anything red flagging the Virginia Tec Killer pushed him over the edge.
What you can do is make support and care available to all. You can accept that it's going to be hard to persuade people to comply with treatment regimes.
Also you're suggesting 3 people spree killers over a 12 year period. So that works out as one every 3 years who wasn't white and male.
But in the spirit of generosity there's a 4th one in Alaska who was Native American.
And then the Washington Sniper was a duo.
Quote: sootyj @ 28th May 2014, 4:12 PM BSTWhat you can do is make support and care available to all. You can accept that it's going to be hard to persuade people to comply with treatment regimes.
Rodgers was given care and support and was not a victim of any cutbacks or lack of funding - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638807/A-40-000-BMW-300-Armani-sunglasses-flying-class-London-private-Katy-Perry-concert-The-privileged-life-Elliot-Rodger.html
Yet he still went on a murder spree. So now we get into an awkward battle of freedoms and rights - do you punish everyone for the actions of a few individuals - whether that be locking up the mentally insane or banning guns? Do you punish the sane and law abiding for the minority actions of criminals and the mentally unstable?
Should there be a secret 'blacklist' of individuals compiled by those in authority - such as school teachers and psychologists - that stops previously innocent people from buying certain items in the off chance they may use them nefariously?
In the words of Obama after Sandy Hook: 'If it saves just one life, then it would have been worth it' - which is an incredibly benign way of bringing in any draconian law where the ends justify the means - much like Bush allowing torture and rendition of suspected terrorists.
One person seems to be commenting a lot on US gun laws, it's true. ;-)
I'm about to butt out of this because you're strawmanning and not listening.
So here's a few very simple points.
1 There is no way of predicting violent behaviour based on mental health. There is a pattern of criminal behaviour related to mental health, so for example catching someone who kicks cats before he starts stabbing prostitutes.
2 It doesn't matter if he was in treatment. Treatment doesn't always work and infact the American focus on curative treatment as opposed to harm reduction often has the opposite effect.
How many rampages have we had in the UK?
I recall the bloke up North (Lake District?) last year and definitely the Hungerford rampage, quite a while age. I'm always reminded of that when I drive through Hungerford. That bloke used a rifle and was very accurate at killing people.
Quote: Badge @ 28th May 2014, 4:29 PM BSTOne person seems to be commenting a lot on US gun laws, it's true. ;-)
One person seems to be advocating that we relax the gunlaws in the UK; this tends to cause discussion about gun laws elsewhere particularly the USA.
Anyway, my big brother's gun is bigger than 'yours' 
He is retired now but he used to be a Naval Gunnery Officer, so used to fire 6 inch shells I expect.
According to Wikipedia there wasn't one since Derek Bird who was in 2010.
But he killed 13 which I think is one of the larger massacres in the UK
But this chap tried to kill 17 people with a van and a knife.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22789299
Basically mental health provision, including social services and police training, as well as gun laws. Are decades ahead of the US who in some ways do seem to like it that way.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 28th May 2014, 2:48 PM BSTI must admit, I am fascinated by the British left's obsession with gun laws in the USA. Why do you care? What's it to you? The sentiment is usually anti-American and yet you want to 'save' them all from themselves?
I'm just wondering why British people feel it's their right to criticise the legal freedoms of another country. Could it be that the British left secretly likes Americans, but similar to wanking, they won't admit it? Do they feel the need to speak due to some form of colonial association - a kind of cultural imperialism if you will? That if only Americans gave up their freedoms and lived like us, they would be 'happy'? (yeah, the Yanks are much more upbeat, positive and optimistic then the piss miserable moaners on this rainy island - trust me).
I've often accused the liberal lefty types of being nothing more then easily led sheep doing exactly what the media tells them to do. The media in this country has told you that American gun rights are out of control, so you dogmatically agree. Even though US gun laws have no impact on your life in any way, shape or form, you feel the need to comment and criticise and impose an opinion based on nothing more then what you've read.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27562915
A man in Belgium ran into a Jewish Museum and shot four people with a rifle, but they're not Americans and the story wasn't in the press every day, so presumably, you don't give a shit.
What a funny old world.
Took the bait, now to reel this sucker in.
Quote: billwill @ 28th May 2014, 4:49 PM BSTOne person seems to be advocating that we relax the gunlaws in the UK; this tends to cause discussion about gun laws elsewhere particularly the USA.
The Isle of Man allows it's citizens to own handguns, it also has a low violent crime rate due to low unemployment and high community spirit.
Why is this? Don't they realise handguns give people murder erections? It's like giving a loaded gun to someone who likes loaded guns. Can we please compare the UK with a country thousands of miles away and has a different culture instead of the Isle of Man - otherwise we might end up spreading information and knowledge instead of ignorance and fear.
Quote: billwill @ 28th May 2014, 4:49 PM BSTHow many rampages have we had in the UK?
I recall the bloke up North (Lake District?) last year and definitely the Hungerford rampage, quite a while age. I'm always reminded of that when I drive through Hungerford. That bloke used a rifle and was very accurate at killing people.
Don't forget Dunblane - 1996 - 1 adult, 16 children, which led to tighter handgun controls.