I read the news today oh boy! Page 1,594

Quote: Tursiops @ 26th May 2014, 10:52 AM BST

The big myth propagated by the liberal left is that voters are responding to economic hard times by believing the poison of demagogues who blame all our problems on immigrants as the enemy within, like the Nazis did with the Jews in thirties Germany. We have failed to learn the lessons of history they say, displaying their contempt for the ignorant electoral masses. Only of course the voters are much savvier, and fundamentally more decent, than they give them credit for. That is why it is the affably potty old fogies of UKIP who have struck a nerve, while the bile spouting BNP and their thick-necked ilk have never succeeded in being more than an irrelevance. I do not see much hatred of immigrants out there, only anger at the politicians who opened the doors to them. That is what the cosy cartel at the heart of British politics need to wake up to, that it is not the immigrants at risk of the angry mob, it is them.

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Totally agree, except the BNP got council and MEPs in the last round of elections.
After they had a ridiculous shellacking from the media at the last election.
Democracy is about living and engaging with the voices you disagree with.

Better an uncomfortable democracy then a comfortable dictatorship.

They want to take us out of the European Convention on Human Rights.

How depressing.

What they seem to fail to grasp is that ECHR is about the rights of the citizen against the government. It is a court made up of the top judges from all over Europe and it gives us an additional method of challenging the decisions of our government.

I thought UKIP were pro putting the power back into the hands of the people.

Obviously not.

Scotland just got their first UKIP candidate. Jings!

Quote: sootyj @ 26th May 2014, 12:26 PM BST

Democracy is about living and engaging with the voices you disagree with.

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I agree, but that isn't happening here. If UKIP were simply a single issue pressure group designed purely to make the main parties engage with the EU/immigration, then I could just about deal with it.

But the main parties are shying away from that argument and are actually taking them seriously. Which even a cursory glance at their excuse for a manifesto explains how ludicrous that is.

Hopefully what these results will do at least is shake up the approach of the main parties, and also galvanise people to come out and vote at the general election to keep the likes of UKIP from shuffling too much further forwards.

Or maybe when UKIP actually come up with some other policies, that'll be what actually hangs them out.

Quote: Jennie @ 26th May 2014, 12:31 PM BST

They want to take us out of the European Convention on Human Rights.

How depressing.

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The only thing that is depressing is that Britain doesn't have it's own independent bill of rights - like every other first world democracy that isn't part of the EU.

Would America hand all of it's legal powers over to Europe? How about Australia? Or Canada? Japan? If the answer is no, then why should we?

Are you saying that the British legal system is somehow corrupt? That we pass laws that devalue human rights? That we can't be trusted to uphold freedoms? That before 1992 our legal system was completely wrong?

Something they will be able to do if they win a majority or become a part of a coalition in government. Then get it through multiple layers of readings and votes.

A series of events so random and unlikely. You might as well worry about Nigel support British space agency and invading the moon.

Nige is going to gang up with Le Pen et al to try and sabotage the work of the EU and slow it down. An act as pointless as a campaign to keep manatees out of Oxford University or make fish fishier.

Quote: Jennie @ 26th May 2014, 12:34 PM BST

I agree, but that isn't happening here. If UKIP were simply a single issue pressure group designed purely to make the main parties engage with the EU/immigration, then I could just about deal with it.

But the main parties are shying away from that argument and are actually taking them seriously. Which even a cursory glance at their excuse for a manifesto explains how ludicrous that is.

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If several hundred thousand or is actually a million or so think that way, it's a point of view that deserves to be respected. That's democracy.

And if UKIP have been winning without a manifesto what does that say both about EU or the argument for it.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 26th May 2014, 12:40 PM BST

Are you saying that the British legal system is somehow corrupt? That we pass laws that devalue human rights? That we can't be trusted to uphold freedoms? That before 1992 our legal system was completely wrong?

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Yes to all of those questions except the last one.

Not sure why you picked 1992 - as I have explained before, we have been a signatory to the European Convention since the end of WWII. In fact, we wrote it.

Government needs checks and balances on its power. The separation of powers has become increasingly blurred - indeed, we have on several occasions needed the European Court to intervene to prevent government intervention in our courts. (For example, the Home Secretary used to dictate the minimum tariff in life sentences.)

You may trust the government implicitly to protect your freedoms, but I don't.

Quote: sootyj @ 26th May 2014, 12:43 PM BST

And if UKIP have been winning without a manifesto what does that say both about EU or the argument for it.

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That it needs to be explained more simply, more plainly. The benefits, or otherwise, laid out for everyone to easily grasp. Because I would guess that a large swathe of people have no real grasp of it, but are still voting for or against it.

On a complex level, absolutely the EU is almost unfathomably complex.

But John Bull isn't quite so thick. They saw the collapse of economies in Portugal, Greece etc. Saw EU pretty much take over their governments and spend billions injecting a semblance of life into them.

Then JB thinks hang on will be spending on this again or if our economy tanks will the German president decide who's our next PM.

They saw countries with appalling corruption and human rights being yanked in for their markets. With such haste it makes a mockery of the EU's apparent commitment to human rights. With refugees turned into economic migrants.

JB isn't quite as dim as I suspect some would think.

Quote: Matthew Stott @ 26th May 2014, 12:36 PM BST

Hopefully what these results will do at least is shake up the approach of the main parties, and also galvanise people to come out and vote

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So you can then criticise them for voting?

There has been some scary language and implications being bandied about after this election - not all on the BCG - that the democratic process is flawed because it didn't go the way that some people would have liked.

Attempting to redefine democracy, claiming a political party isn't a political party, personal attacks on a party leader over his appearance, lambasting the electorate for carrying out their right to vote - it's all kind of North Korean in tone.

Quote: sootyj @ 26th May 2014, 12:58 PM BST

On a complex level, absolutely the EU is almost unfathomably complex.

But John Bull isn't quite so thick. They saw the collapse of economies in Portugal, Greece etc. Saw EU pretty much take over their governments and spend billions injecting a semblance of life into them.

Then JB thinks hang on will be spending on this again or if our economy tanks will the German president decide who's our next PM.

They saw countries with appalling corruption and human rights being yanked in for their markets. With such haste it makes a mockery of the EU's apparent commitment to human rights. With refugees turned into economic migrants.

JB isn't quite as dim as I suspect some would think.

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They should interview some of those UKIP voters then, all I ever see on the news are bald, middle-aged lads in checked shirts shouting 'go on Nigel!'

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 26th May 2014, 1:02 PM BST

So you can then criticise them for voting?

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??

Quote: Jennie @ 26th May 2014, 12:46 PM BST

Not sure why you picked 1992

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That was when Tony Blair unilaterally signed up Britain to the Maastricht Treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_the_European_Court_of_Justice_and_European_Court_of_Human_Rights

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 26th May 2014, 1:02 PM BST

personal attacks on a party leader over his appearance,

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That happens to almost every politician. People don't mock, for example, Cameron or Miliband over the way they look? Farage isn't a special case.

Completely agree if UKIP are doing well, stop digging people have tried and failed. They are no more sinister or criminal then the big parties and seem to have lot less criminal pervs then the LibDems.

Question why Labour spent the election talking about Tony the Tiger and haven't replaced some of the most hated ministers in it's history.

Question why Call me Dave's promises on a referendum sounds like a Wonga loan agreement.

Question why the options in this country are so inutterably shit. Then ask why a sunshine politics, group of beer guzzling, genial coves made such an impression.

Democracy is not supposed to be easy or comfortable.