I read the news today oh boy! Page 1,505

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 8th April 2014, 1:09 PM BST

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26933626

It really does appear that the death of Peaches Geldof was a tragedy, Lionel Blair, Girls Aloud and Rizzle Kicks have all expressed their sadness on Twitter.

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Way to ruin my afternoon I read all that and assumed they were dead.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 7th April 2014, 11:31 PM BST

No doubt you did find it tragic. Mickey Rooney also died today, but he was 93 years old and people thought he died years ago - now that is kind of tragic.

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Poor little guy, still getting upstaged by less talented youngsters.

will immediately splutter out 'Was it drugs? Was it?

Actually that was you last night old bean. Her crime to you seems to be her opinions had currency. You don't despise her as you claim ... How could you , you didn't know her. Unless you are saying the media represents truth now? What you despise is the society that gives her opinions currency although yours are superior. Maybe you are right there. But beating yourself up over it won't help you or the poor black people.

Michael Adebolajo is to appeal against his whole life term for the murder of Lee Rigby.

I can see that going all the way to Europe and putting the government in conflict with the ECtHR.

Whilst it may be an unpopular view, I don't see why this murder deserves a whole life tariff when so many others do not.

A soldier's life is not more (or less) valuable than anyone else's.

It was a violent assault - so are lots of murders. Stephen Marshall, the Jigsaw Killer who chopped up his roommate and deposited various limbs around Hertfordshire, only got a minimum of 36 years.

It was in public. A seriously aggravating factor, but not so aggravating to justify the whole life term.

They were doing it for a cause. Is that any better than the majority of murders that occur for no reason whatsoever?

The fantastic documentary, Scenes From a Teenage Killing, documents every teenage death from violence in 2009. The filmmaker interviews friends and families and police. The overwhelming impression was that these horrendous crimes take place over the slightest of things - a perceived insult, a £15 drug debt.

Generally whole life tariffs are reserved for a)serial killers, b)child murderers or c)offences with a sexual element. None of that was present in this case.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 7th April 2014, 11:31 PM BST

No doubt you did find it tragic. Mickey Rooney also died today, but he was 93 years old and people thought he died years ago - now that is kind of tragic.

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I've got an idea! Let's do a tribute right here!

(Launches into musical number.)

(Doesn't really.)

Would you want him walking down your street in a few years time?

Quote: Marc P @ 8th April 2014, 1:21 PM BST

will immediately splutter out 'Was it drugs? Was it?

Actually that was you last night old bean. Her crime to you seems to be her opinions had currency.

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Quote: roscoff @ 7th April 2014, 10:20 PM BST

However he commented she was the wildest of the lot of us. Is this something that's good? I suspect (but don't actually know) this is probably what got her killed.

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Oh Marc, I know you're desperate to prove me wrong, but please do me the favour of sparing me your blinkered outlook / online vendetta. Singling me out as the only one who's first thought was 'yep, drink, drugs or suicide' is hypocritical and pernicious at best.

I don't know if her opinions had currency or not, the only thing memorable I can recall was her having a strop when being asked about Scientology.

Whole life terms are I suppose expensive and hated by the prison service, because they fill jails with criminals with nothing to lose. I'd say Thatcher set up an interesting principle, which was terrorists are criminals.
They're motivation irrelevant, you kill some one because God or Martin McGuiness doesn't matter go to prison do your time.
Also 40 years is the good years of your life gone.

nb Anders Brevick will probably be out in about 17 years.

Quote: Jennie @ 8th April 2014, 1:36 PM BST

Whilst it may be an unpopular view, I don't see why this murder deserves a whole life tariff when so many others do not.

A soldier's life is not more (or less) valuable than anyone else's.

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As pointed out in a previous discussion by your good self, we don't actually have any bona fide 'terrorism' laws in the UK. My initial assessment was that he should have been tried as a terrorist and shipped off to Guantanamo Bay never to be seen again.

Because we're not allowed to do this, the British government has done the next best thing and imposed a whole life tariff. Running over and beheading a British soldier in the street before attacking the police with a gun and a knife is easily worthy of a whole life tariff.

More importantly, anything less would have caused public outrage and a call for the reintroduction of the death penalty. As we're involved in a 'global war on terror', being soft on home grown radicalised terrorists who want to murder British soldiers is not a good idea.

I really don't think you can do a 'like for like' comparison in this case.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 8th April 2014, 1:47 PM BST

Oh Marc, I know you're desperate to prove me wrong, but please do me the favour of sparing me your blinkered outlook / online vendetta. Singling me out as the only one who's first thought was 'yep, drink, drugs or suicide' is hypocritical and pernicious at best.

I don't know if her opinions had currency or not, the only thing memorable I can recall was her having a strop when being asked about Scientology.

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Wrong about what?

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 8th April 2014, 1:54 PM BST

Because we're not allowed to do this, the British government has done the next best thing and imposed a whole life tariff. Running over and beheading a British soldier in the street before attacking the police with a gun and a knife is easily worthy of a whole life tariff.

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Maybe according to you, but not according to the law. Here is the list of everyone who has ever received a whole life tariff in the UK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_with_whole-life_tariffs

There are 55 of them. Every single one of them falls into one of the three categories I listed above. Except, bizarrely, for some chap called Thomas MacDowell who chopped up a trainee Rabbi in 2004.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ 8th April 2014, 1:54 PM BST

More importantly, anything less would have caused public outrage and a call for the reintroduction of the death penalty. As we're involved in a 'global war on terror', being soft on home grown radicalised terrorists who want to murder British soldiers is not a good idea.

I really don't think you can do a 'like for like' comparison in this case.

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Exactly, sentencing by public opinion is the absolute worst way to sentence. That is I what I think this is and that is why it needs to be challenged.

I don't accept it would be a deterrent. Deterrent sentences don't work for normal crimes and I have no doubt they would be even less effective for those who believe they are on a mission from God.

Quote: Stephen Goodlad @ 8th April 2014, 1:45 PM BST

Would you want him walking down your street in a few years time?

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No, but he never will. A minimum tariff is just that - a minimum. The prisoner still has to satisfy the powers that be that they no longer pose a threat to the community.

I doubt Adebolajo would ever convince anyone of that.

It is about the principle rather than the practical effect.

Quote: Marc P @ 8th April 2014, 1:54 PM BST

Wrong about what?

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That I was the one who first suggested it was drink / drugs. That somehow I was making up this reaction to her death. That the same people who publically mourned her also asked these questions.

Flippity flippers chicken dippers Marc, constantly having to explain everything to you like an annoying child who continually answers everything with 'why?' is starting to get a bit tedious.

What's the longest non whole life sentence that can be given?

80yrs? 100?

Quote: Jennie @ 8th April 2014, 2:03 PM BST

Maybe according to you, but not according to the law. Here is the list of everyone who has ever received a whole life tariff in the UK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prisoners_with_whole-life_tariffs

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I think the problem is that you're confusing the law with justice and disregarding public concerns. Much in the same way the Scottish Parliament did with the Lockerbie Bomber.

Whether it acts as a deterrent or not is a different conversation, though I do believe that this incident has probably had an impact on radicalisation in this country.

To suggest that Lee Rigby's killers should get anything less then a whole life tariff is political suicide and the resulting outrage would force through harsher, knee jerk and much more reactionary laws.

All violent murderers should get whole life terms. Rather than changing his sentence to match others, let's change all the others to match his. He'll be happy then because I'm sure all he wants is to be treated fairly.

And he'll have lots of company with all the other murderers.

Criminals are criminals, murderers are murderers. I can't see the point in giving him the special status he so obviously desires.

As for Guantanomo they're not taking anyone new in, because it was a disaster for the US legal system.

Quote: Oldrocker @ 8th April 2014, 2:10 PM BST

What's the longest non whole life sentence that can be given?

80yrs? 100?

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you're thinking of the US, if its not whole life in the UK it tops out around 40-50 years.