Why does anyone need religion? Page 26

Quote: Kevin Murphy @ May 27 2013, 12:57 PM BST

An atheist, by the definition most people use, is somebody who doesn't believe in any gods. You're suggesting that atheists are only people who believe God definitely doesn't exist, which isn't the case.

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But what I'm saying is believing or not believing in God is just a choice that can't be backed up with any degree of proof. Therefore, the logical choice is to sit on the fence. Be agnostic.

Isn't atheism really about being against the concept of organised religion rather than a philosophical debate about the existence of god?

I may go and read up on this as it reminds me of the pointless philosophical arguments we used to have in university.

Well where does religion start and culture begin?

Taken for example those bat shit Christians thanking God for killing only 23 kids with a tornado. Do you think they'd be gay friendly, abortion accepting nice people with out religion?

It's more they're wealthy, cultural imperialist nimbies who happen to use Christianity as a cover.

Quote: chipolata @ May 27 2013, 1:07 PM BST

Isn't atheism really about being against the concept of organised religion rather than a philosophical debate about the existence of god?

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Now that I can buy into.

Religion should really be out of schools, the courts and hospitals.

The way both parties have allowed religion into schools is insidious.

Quote: chipolata @ May 27 2013, 1:07 PM BST

But what I'm saying is believing or not believing in God is just a choice that can't be backed up with any degree of proof. Therefore, the logical choice is to sit on the fence. Be agnostic.

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Yes. But many agnostics are also atheists.

Isn't atheism really about being against the concept of organised religion rather than a philosophical debate about the existence of god?

Nope.

I may go and read up on this as it reminds me of the pointless philosophical arguments we used to have in university.

Agree.

Surely if you can't prove the existence of God, then conversely you can't disprove Gods existence?

And isn't religion the problem as opposed to the existence of a supernatural force?

Quote: sootyj @ May 27 2013, 1:10 PM BST

Well where does religion start and culture begin?

Religion should really be out of schools, the courts and hospitals.

The way both parties have allowed religion into schools is insidious.

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That I agree with

Quote: chipolata @ May 27 2013, 12:34 PM BST

Haven't watched the link yet, but couldn't that statement be just as easily applied to atheism? The existence of God can neither be proved or disproved. Atheists can no more more prove God doesn't exist than the religious can prove he does. So in a sense the only sane and logical position is to be agnostic.

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Absolutely.
I don't know either.
I'm 100% agnostic.
All I know is that if there is 'intelligence' behind the design it sure as f**k isn't going to care if we eat fish on Friday or don't go shopping on Sunday.
When it comes to the source of the universe, a convoluted mathematical equation is just as likely as the snap of some supernatural finger or the spewing of some cosmic turtle.
We don't know.
The difference with scientists is that they don't hack people's heads off for not subscribing to their particular theory.

Quote: Lazzard @ May 27 2013, 12:19 PM BST

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w

Yes, it's stand up, but I think it's a pretty sound assessment.

And as to the original question?

Religion is for people who are uncomfortable with "I don't know".

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Or for people who are comfortable with a do know somehow

Quote: Lazzard @ May 27 2013, 1:18 PM BST

Absolutely.
I don't know either.
I'm 100% agnostic.
All I know is that if there is 'intelligence' behind the design it sure as f**k isn't going to care if we eat fish on Friday or don't go shopping on Sunday.
When it comes to the source of the universe, a convoluted mathematical equation is just as likely as the snap of some supernatural finger or the spewing of some cosmic turtle.
We don't know.
The difference with scientists is that they don't hack people's heads off for not subscribing to their particular theory.

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Literal fundementalism denies the majesty and power of the stories.

I never got that, it makes the whole story sound so bland and dull.

The idea of man kind evolving into understanding there's more to life than mere survival, that human life is inherently valid or even just the value of kindness and decency. Now that's an interesting story.

That God hates farra slacks, none rotating crops and can spread fish around. Now that's a dull story.

Quote: Lazzard @ May 27 2013, 1:18 PM BST

Absolutely.
I don't know either.
I'm 100% agnostic.
All I know is that if there is 'intelligence' behind the design it sure as f**k isn't going to care if we eat fish on Friday or don't go shopping on Sunday.
When it comes to the source of the universe, a convoluted mathematical equation is just as likely as the snap of some supernatural finger or the spewing of some cosmic turtle.
We don't know.
The difference with scientists is that they don't hack people's heads off for not subscribing to their particular theory.

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A belief in God or faith in some spiritual afterlife doesn't need to be organised into a religion. When belief gets organised it gets bigoted. Some of the most moral people I have known have been atheists, it really doesn't matter. With me it is more of a gut feeling in God. Its no big deal, I don't expect others to believe what I do because I do. Live and live, and try to disentangle belief from the shackles of religious fundamentalism, bureaucracy and hypocrisy

Quote: Pingl @ May 27 2013, 1:25 PM BST

A belief in God or faith in some spiritual afterlife doesn't need to be organised into a religion. When belief gets organised it gets bigoted. Some of the most moral people I have known have been atheists, it really doesn't matter. With me it is more of a gut feeling in God. Its no big deal, I don't expect others to believe what I do because I do. Live and live, and try to disentangle belief from the shackles of religious fundamentalism, bureaucracy and hypocrisy

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Well said.
That's exactly as it should be.
And anyway, perhaps God is Physics and Physics is God.

Alain de Botton's book 'Religion for Athiests' sheds some light regarding what universal value lies in religion, even for the non-religious.

(hoping someone hasnt mentioned it already .. )

Quote: sootyj @ May 27 2013, 1:24 PM BST

The idea of man kind evolving into understanding there's more to life than mere survival, that human life is inherently valid or even just the value of kindness and decency. Now that's an interesting story.

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My belief/theory is that religion is part of evolution.
As our brains developed, the need to understand is what is spurred us towards more growth.
And I think that need to understand came as a direct sense of sense of wonder which probably resides in a part of the brain undeveloped in your average dog or mongoose.
Religion and 'god-making' is part of that process - way of understanding
I think it's something we'll shed, like the vestigial tale.
But I don't think it particularly matters if it hangs about a bit - like the appendix.
Even if it might flare up occasionally.

Wish I'd never started this, it's mekkin' me yed ake !

Quote: Lazzard @ May 27 2013, 3:33 PM BST

My belief/theory is that religion is part of evolution.
As our brains developed, the need to understand is what is spurred us towards more growth.
And I think that need to understand came as a direct sense of sense of wonder which probably resides in a part of the brain undeveloped in your average dog or mongoose.
Religion and 'god-making' is part of that process - way of understanding
I think it's something we'll shed, like the vestigial tale.
But I don't think it particularly matters if it hangs about a bit - like the appendix.
Even if it might flare up occasionally.

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I think science is now sufficently preeminent and answers so many questions it's supplanting religion.

So it's not so much evolving away it's becoming something healthier and more rational.

Quote: Lazzard @ May 27 2013, 3:33 PM BST

My belief/theory is that religion is part of evolution.
As our brains developed, the need to understand is what is spurred us towards more growth.
And I think that need to understand came as a direct sense of sense of wonder which probably resides in a part of the brain undeveloped in your average dog or mongoose.
Religion and 'god-making' is part of that process - way of understanding
I think it's something we'll shed, like the vestigial tale.
But I don't think it particularly matters if it hangs about a bit - like the appendix.
Even if it might flare up occasionally.

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I think what you're describing here is the "god of the gaps".

When we didn't know where lightning came from, we blamed Thor.

When we didn't know where people came from, we said God made us from dirt.

Today, we still don't know how life started on Earth, so religious people say God done it.

The more we learn, the less need there is for an Almighty.

The gap gets smaller and smaller and will eventually disappear.

Even then there'll still be millions of muppets in denial, no doubt.