Too long- too short- not enough gags- discuss

When reading Critique I find myself puzzled by the ever-present cry of "too long" even when IMO the work is often quite short. I'm not talking about my own stuff particularly either. I try and nearly always write something that is well within one page long. I don't regard that as too long in general and often I will have just a couple of exchanges in a sketch.

Also when writing a "quick" sketch that is a lead to an obvious one joke punchline, the "think it should start with a gag" argument is often wheeled out.

Now this has got me thinking. From whence comes this received wisdom? Is it being taught in media courses or something? I am old enough to remember many classic sketch shows and I would contend that frequently a sketch was allowed time to breathe and develop and would frequently clock in at several minutes.

Monty Python springs to mind as a prime example. But now in common with everything else in life it seems we want to have our comedy like our noodles - instant and bang bang bang.

I tend to write fairly brief stuff as a result of this market trend but wonder what fellow scribes think about long versus short.

Let’s have a heated debate!

Well the art is to end on your best joke - in most cases. This should be as much as a surprise as possible so a short sketch can be too long if the punchline is too obvious, too weak or over explained.

A longer sketch needs gags all the way as silence for too long is deadly and the audience needs confidence in the sketch to laugh.

That's how I see it.

As Phill has shared with his 'How To Write for News Revue/Treason Show' guides, you need to hit a live audience with a joke to keep their interest.

I think it very much depends on the tone of the show and nature of the audience. If it's a laugh-out-loud brash sketch show, you need 'laugh-laugh-laugh', big and obvious, knob gags, the works.

If it a subtle, more intelligent show, you're probably allowed to get away without the obvious joke at the beginning and 'work' the audience into laughter. No knob gags allowed.

I think with the 'Critique' forum, the atmosphere is not set up and you've got a cold open so a lot of readers don't know what to expect, whereas they would if they went to NR/Treason Show/a recording of Man Stroke Woman etc.

Stuff that takes a long time to act out does tend to need little hints of jokes to keep people's interest and 'Nuts is right in that you should end on the best joke. Personally, I find a lot of older comedy sketches feel like they last a *long* time. A lot of Monty Python (which I don't really get) and Two Ronnies (which I do) sketches can feel like a loooooooong time when you watch them now.

Dan

Quote: swerytd @ February 11, 2008, 9:57 AM

Stuff that takes a long time to act out does tend to need little hints of jokes to keep people's interest and 'Nuts is right in that you should end on the best joke. Personally, I find a lot of older comedy sketches feel like they last a *long* time. A lot of Monty Python (which I don't really get) and Two Ronnies (which I do) sketches can feel like a loooooooong time when you watch them now.

Dan

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I think that is down to the evolution of comedy. Now a days good comedy is more subtle as we've had years and years to develop comedy pallets, so jokes aren't as drawn out as they used to be. Also, the tempo seems to have changed, but thats true for most things. I still find Fry and Laurie brilliant.

It's a zen thing.

Think I would agree with some of what you've both said but often what gets forgotten is how the actors deliver the lines. Little nuances and vocal inflections etc and I do get a bit cheesed of with some of the observations made over length.

Having said that I watched a Vitoria Wood sketch from "as seen on TV" recently and I was shouting at the telly "get on with it for God's sake!" It seemed to take for ever. I think Victoria Wood is brilliant btw.

Like most things I think that personal preference is probably the answer as even modern shows like the Mitchell & Wbb and Armstrong and Miller have long sketches.

But I bet if one of my fave recent sketch characters (Chav Airmen) had been posted in Critique the "too longs" would have had it condemned in a minute - sorry second.

I'm not sure the Chav Airmen would come across at all well on the page, tbh. But they're Armstrong & Miller and can do what they like...

Yeah but that's the point Dan. I think that it's necessary to look beyond the page and see the situation and setting.

I think that reading a lot of scripts off the page does the shows no real justice. I love Porridge and reading the scripts, although entertaining and fun, is in no way as funny as the show itself.

The performed piece is a sum of several parts and I feel that sometimes this is left out of peoples' views. Too often the critique poster seems to want the script only to entertain, without imagining the whole thing. I like it, in a critique of my own work, when people say "I could just imangine...." I feel that I've done my job then.

Comedy is like poking a monkey with a stick. It either feels right, or it doesn't. When it doesn't you'll search, and pick, and analyze to find that one piece of the puzzle that's missing. When it works it's like scratching, an itch it just works.

Father Ted forcefully denying Dougal a pop tart at Lent. Marvin saying that he'll just stand quietly and rust. The term paranoid android it's self.

So most of the critiques are the search, for what's missing.

But even a short sketch can be too long. That deathless period when you're wandering so where is the punchline may be 2 lines long, but can feel like forever.

n.b. Anyone can write,

Actor comes on and does hilarious chav impersonation of George Bush.

A painter doesn't know the light his picture will be seen in.

An writer doesn't know the mouth that will form his words.

I'm guilty of saying 'could be shortened' and was thinking after the last time I put it 'why am I critiquing like this'.
For me though it's not about the length of a piece,it's whether the material justifys that length. So 'too long' means too drawn out/repetitive without reason etc.'Write tight' is a mantra I grew up with and unless the rambling serves a purpose I personally would cut it. I think theres a real art to holding peoples interest in a long run-up to a punchline/reveal but a lot of writers seem to think it's just a case of putting in a load of unneccessary stuff to fluff out the piece.
Gags at the beginning though are dependant on the piece,surely. But weak or overexplained beginnings need sorting.

Quote: niteowl @ February 11, 2008, 7:47 PM

For me though it's not about the length of a piece,it's whether the material justifys that length.

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I really agree with this line. If it's unnecessarily long and it can be shortened without loosing anything, then it should be.

I think people come to sketches from 2 different angles, one to deliver a punchline and the other to show a character. But if the audience fails to laugh then both have failed in a sketch's primary reason for existence.

Even a one line gag can be flabby and over-written, as can any other form of writing. Economy and conciseness, I think, are the key rather than length of sketch. If the writer has packed in the laughs and kept the dialogue and direction tight then time is a secondary issue. But even so, deliver as fast as possible and get out just as fast. If a writer cannot say what they need to say in under 3 minutes, they're either taking on too much for the scope of the sketch or it's a unsubtle hint that they're over-writing.

A lot of flab can be cut out during the edit but it's a completely different discipline to filling a page. Some sketches immediately tell you the writer has read and re-read before pressing 'send'. The edit can make indifferent, good; and good, great.

I think the point of "too long" is sometimes when a sketch is longer than about 6" on this screen - especially when everybody is posting new stuff.

It's just that if you want to get through allthe threads you haven't really got time to wade through them.

I hate the Toooooooo looooooong thing.
I mean a sketch can be about 5 mins long. Thats a lot of writing.
I appreciate peeps dont want to spend weeks reading something. Maybe it would be better if people said "Needs more gags for the length".