Quote: Gordon Bennett @ November 21 2012, 2:26 PM GMTYeah, but Zep stole the melodies and structures and changed a few words in the lyrics, and then credited the songs to themselves. The Stones made proper covers...so did John Mayall,Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac.
Including a Small Faces song which became Whole Lotta Love.
Maybe the song mentioned above but how they claimed to write them I don't know.
Quote: Pingl @ November 21 2012, 3:45 PM GMTI think that's a bit unfair on Zep, although I'm not a massive fan, they were the first real heavy band, and like every band lifted a bit, but they were the leaders of a new wave.
Don't get me wrong, Pingl. I love Zep, I wrote earlier that Celebration Day is THE release of the year for me. But it should be mentioned that songs like Gallows Pole, In My Time Of Dying, Nobody's Fault or The Lemon Song are shameless rewrites without mentioning the real writers, who were mostly poor black blues men. The only honest credit in this regard was for When The Levee Breaks, who was credited to themselves AND Memphis Minnie.
Quote: Pingl @ November 21 2012, 4:55 PM GMTHalf the bands in the world have been done for plagiarism its a fact of the business, George Harrison, the beach boys, Coldplay etc
Well there's a difference in scale; Led Zep 'covered' loads of songs without crediting them, whereas Harrison, for example, was found guilty once of subconcious plagiarism.
It's quite interesting to investigate the alleged cases of plagiarism, like with Dazed and Confused; try this song, released 1967:
https://www.comedy.co.uk/forums/quote/933799/
...then listen to the Yardbirds with Page do it in 1968:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58mQvW0ROag
I would argue that to a large extent, Page made it into his own song, but it's clearly a cover of sorts. In fact, it would have been pretty easy to disguise the song's origins by just using a different title and completely different lyrics, but they didn't attempt that. Perhaps they didn't care? Or maybe they didn't intend it to be anything other than a cover?
Quote: Nogget @ November 22 2012, 10:26 AM GMTWell there's a difference in scale; Led Zep 'covered' loads of songs without crediting them, whereas Harrison, for example, was found guilty once of subconcious plagiarism.
It's quite interesting to investigate the alleged cases of plagiarism, like with Dazed and Confused; try this song, released 1967: https://www.comedy.co.uk/forums/quote/933799/
...then listen to the Yardbirds with Page do it in 1968: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58mQvW0ROagI would argue that to a large extent, Page made it into his own song, but it's clearly a cover of sorts. In fact, it would have been pretty easy to disguise the song's origins by just using a different title and completely different lyrics, but they didn't attempt that. Perhaps they didn't care? Or maybe they didn't intend it to be anything other than a cover?
The interesting thing about My sweet lord was that in the end Harrison won. Alan Klien became so discredited during the case that the rights were split in the end. It is so easy to plagiarise, Paul MacCartney dreamt the song yesterday and was sure someone else had written it, it took him months of asking people if they had heard it before until he accepted he had written it. There are only so many chords, I think unless it is blatant it is on the whole forgivable
Michael Stipe said in an interview that when he starts to write music for a new album he stops listening to music for three months or so because he knows he subconsciously plagiarizes other people's work.
But back to Zep. They were a bit shizophrene in this regard...stealing songs from poor bluesmen but on the other hand supporting other unknown musicians like Roy Harper. With their swansong label they helped to make some acts famous like Bad Company for instance. It's strange that despite their deep love for blues they treated their heroes without respect.
Quote: Gordon Bennett @ November 22 2012, 10:38 AM GMTMichael Stipe said in an interview that when he starts to write music for a new album he stops listening to music for three months or so because he knows he subconsciously plagiarizes other people's work.
That's right, look at the Beach Boys 'surfing USA' and Chuck Berry's 'sweet little sixteen', I would contend they are different enough to give Brian Wilson the credit, but Berry won the case and owns the rights. Rock and pop is about evolution, building on the past and being influenced by other artists. In that way sampling at its best is good, a great baseline like taxman can be used by the Jam for Start, it's a great baseline and otherwise the songs are coming from separate generations, it is a homage by Weller more than a lift. weller never made any secret of his influences.
Quote: Pingl @ November 22 2012, 10:44 AM GMTIn that way sampling at its best is good, a great baseline like taxman can be used by the Jam for Start, it's a great baseline and otherwise the songs are coming from separate generations, it is a homage by Weller more than a lift.
This was a one off thing...so it's more or less an obvious tribute to Harrisons work in The Beatles. But Zep had about 10 95% rip offs in their catalogue. That goes way beyond being an hommage to blues.
Quote: Gordon Bennett @ November 22 2012, 10:48 AM GMTThis was a one off thing...so it's more or less an obvious tribute to Harrisons work in The Beatles. But Zep had about 10 95% rip offs in their catalogue. That goes way beyond being an hommage to blues.
Agreed, but its more about what Zep did with the source material, it was revolutionary, its not so much their songwriting skills, its more their musical skill. They pushed the boundaries to a place it hadn't been before. When Zep were good they were amazing, when they were bad they were embarrassing. But their place in rock history is assured because of where they took the blues, not what they wrote really. I've always hated stairway to heaven, to me it was a bland, standard and clumsy work. But Whole lotta love, that is another matter...
Quote: Pingl @ November 22 2012, 10:57 AM GMTAgreed, but its more about what Zep did with the source material, it was revolutionary, its not so much their
songwriting skills, its more their musical skill.
Yes
Quote: Pingl @ November 22 2012, 10:57 AM GMTwhen they were bad they were embarrassing.
D'Yer Mak'er, All My Love...
Quote: Pingl @ November 22 2012, 10:57 AM GMTI've always hated stairway to heaven, to me it was a bland, standard and clumsy work.
I don't know why people think this piece of music is groudbreaking. Some Prog bands did similar things 2 or 3 years earlier...listen to Nothing At All by Gentle Giant. It has even a similar melody (!!!!!!) but was released a year earlier. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIlG0TmxzTs
Quote: Nogget @ November 22 2012, 10:26 AM GMTIt's quite interesting to investigate the alleged cases of plagiarism, like with Dazed and Confused; try this song, released 1967: https://www.comedy.co.uk/forums/quote/933799/
...then listen to the Yardbirds with Page do it in 1968: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58mQvW0ROagI would argue that to a large extent, Page made it into his own song, but it's clearly a cover of sorts. In fact, it would have been pretty easy to disguise the song's origins by just using a different title and completely different lyrics, but they didn't attempt that. Perhaps they didn't care? Or maybe they didn't intend it to be anything other than a cover?
The Yardbirds still play this now - or did when I last saw them about 4 or 5 yearsago.
Quote: Pingl @ November 22 2012, 10:35 AM GMTThe interesting thing about My sweet lord was that in the end Harrison won. Alan Klien became so discredited during the case that the rights were split in the end. It is so easy to plagiarise, Paul MacCartney dreamt the song yesterday and was sure someone else had written it, it took him months of asking people if they had heard it before until he accepted he had written it. There are only so many chords, I think unless it is blatant it is on the whole forgivable
In my songwriting days I was convinced most of the good stuff we wrote came from somewhere else but you can never really remember where.
Quote: Chappers @ November 22 2012, 10:30 PM GMTThe Yardbirds still play this now - or did when I last saw them about 4 or 5 yearsago.
In my songwriting days I was convinced most of the good stuff we wrote came from somewhere else but you can never really remember where.
I had the same thing when I was in a band years ago, we were always paranoid we were ripping people off, mind you we probably were.
Quote: Pingl @ November 22 2012, 10:33 PM GMTI had the same thing when I was in a band years ago, we were always paranoid we were ripping people off, mind you we probably were.
Black Sabbath ?
Quote: Oldrocker @ November 23 2012, 12:30 AM GMTBlack Sabbath ?
It certainly was diabolical 
Quote: Pingl @ November 23 2012, 12:11 PM GMTIt certainly was diabolical
Diabolical? Isn't that when you have too much sugar in your blood?
Watched the first part of Crossfire Hurricane, I don't know why but the history of the Stones just doesn't grab me in the same way as other bands. It's Jagger I think he really gets on my nerves. Charlie Watts is just the greatest though.