Capital punishment - yes or no ? Page 3

Quote: sootyj @ August 21 2012, 10:36 AM BST

Where as conversley those with the more humane prison system and capped sentences have the lower murder rate.

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Or did have until Anders Breivik came along.

Quote: sootyj @ August 21 2012, 10:36 AM BST

Murder is not a rational act.

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He's just spent a month in court arguing and probably proving beyond all doubt that it is.

And three thousand plus people murdered by the 9/11 murderers. An act that was rational in the extreme.

But any death sentence is irrelevant in such cases as it would have had no deterrent effect at all.

Quote: sootyj @ August 21 2012, 10:26 AM BST

The problem is prison is hugely expensive

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I wonder how much it has cost to keep Ian Brady in prison all these years? I am guessing about the cost of building a school, or year on year the wages of around a dozen nurses. As a society we have to make choices about how tax revenue is spent. From a utilitarian point of view it does not make much sense to put that investment into maintaining the life of someone who has broken society's rules to such an extent that under no circumstances would they ever be released.

Just saying.

For once, I agree with the liberal arguments put forward regarding the non-re-introduction of the death penalty. Though I wish people would stop using America as the example - remember folks it's the Chinese we should be criticising over state sponsored executions, many of which are political in nature. They've even got a murder bus that goes around the Chinese countryside killing people and taking their organs. Stop America bashing, start China bashing!

As for Britain and capital punishment, we live in a country that celebrates criminals like no other on Earth - we've turned murderers into folk heroes and armed robbers into sex symbols. John McVicar, the Krays, Ronnie Biggs, Charles Bronson and more recently Raoul Moat are showered with praise, admiration and celebrity status.

Some people say there should be a public vote on bringing back capital punishment, I for one, am glad that a dictatorial high road has been taken by our politicians in this instance.

Quote: Tursiops @ August 21 2012, 11:52 AM BST

I wonder how much it has cost to keep Ian Brady in prison all these years? I am guessing about the cost of building a school, or year on year the wages of around a dozen nurses. As a society we have to make choices about how tax revenue is spent. From a utilitarian point of view it does not make much sense to put that investment into maintaining the life of someone who has broken society's rules to such an extent that under no circumstances would they ever be released.

Just saying.

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Agreed, but we still can't go around killing people cos killing people is wrong which is why we want to kill these people. Innit.

I would like to see criminals given the opportunity to voluntarily participate in medical trials, thus giving something back to society, stopping animal testing, and hastening scientific and medical progress.
If they weren't obliged to then it wouldn't be cruel, they may get a sense of pride and feeling of playing a part in society because they would be likely to see the results of important studies published and used as the lengthy animal testing steps in a development would be eradicated, and as an alternative to dying or even boredom I think there would be a significant enough amount of lifers up for it.

Quote: AJGO @ August 21 2012, 12:14 PM BST

Agreed, but we still can't go around killing people cos killing people is wrong which is why we want to kill these people. Innit.

I would like to see criminals given the opportunity to voluntarily participate in medical trials, thus giving something back to society, stopping animal testing, and hastening scientific and medical progress.
If they weren't obliged to then it wouldn't be cruel, they may get a sense of pride and feeling of playing a part in society because they would be likely to see the results of important studies published and used as the lengthy animal testing steps in a development would be eradicated, and as an alternative to dying or even boredom I think there would be a significant enough amount of lifers up for it.

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Do you think a significant amount of lifers actually care about what they've done enough to want to redeem themselves?

Quote: Tursiops @ August 21 2012, 11:52 AM BST

I wonder how much it has cost to keep Ian Brady in prison all these years?

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BBC estimates the cost of keeping someone in prison to be £47000pa.

46 years x £47000 = £2,162,000.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ August 21 2012, 12:11 PM BST

I wish people would stop using America as the example - remember folks it's the Chinese we should be criticising over state sponsored executions, many of which are political in nature. They've even got a murder bus that goes around the Chinese countryside killing people and taking their organs. Stop America bashing, start China bashing!

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I think that we use America as a comparative example because it has more cultural similarities with us than China does, not because America is the worst country imaginable.

Quote: AJGO @ August 21 2012, 12:14 PM BST

Agreed, but we still can't go around killing people cos killing people is wrong which is why we want to kill these people. Innit.

I would like to see criminals given the opportunity to voluntarily participate in medical trials, thus giving something back to society, stopping animal testing, and hastening scientific and medical progress.
If they weren't obliged to then it wouldn't be cruel, they may get a sense of pride and feeling of playing a part in society because they would be likely to see the results of important studies published and used as the lengthy animal testing steps in a development would be eradicated, and as an alternative to dying or even boredom I think there would be a significant enough amount of lifers up for it.

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I think that could very easily shift from volunteering to being volunteered.

I don't see why prisoners can't be put to some kind of productive work, though. Even if it's only growing vegetables or something giving prisoners an 8-hour work day would alleviate some of the boredom, and might teach skills to those who didn't have any.

Quote: AJGO @ August 21 2012, 12:14 PM BST

I would like to see criminals given the opportunity to voluntarily participate in medical trials, thus giving something back to society, stopping animal testing, and hastening scientific and medical progress.

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Wow, that is pretty scary stuff. You've reduced a human being (albeit, not a very good one) to a status of less then a lab rat. What do the prisoners get in exchange for letting someone spray shampoo in their eyes? How much extra will it cost the taxpayer if we suddenly have to hospitalise vast amounts of criminals? How would you deal with Amnesty International and other human rights campaigners?

Still, it worked for these guys -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ August 21 2012, 12:36 PM BST

Wow, that is pretty scary stuff. You've reduced a human being (albeit, not a very good one) to a status of less then a lab rat. What do the prisoners get in exchange for letting someone spray shampoo in their eyes? How much extra will it cost the taxpayer if we suddenly have to hospitalise vast amounts of criminals? How would you deal with Amnesty International and other human rights campaigners?

Still, it worked for these guys -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

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Plus we would find out if a six-inch nail through the bollocks really does cure a headache...

Better than doing it on bunnies.

Quote: Harridan @ August 21 2012, 12:36 PM BST

I don't see why prisoners can't be put to some kind of productive work, though. Even if it's only growing vegetables

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It worked on Porridge!

Quote: Lazzard @ August 21 2012, 12:37 PM BST

Plus we would find out if a six-inch nail through the bollocks really does cure a headache...

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Quote: Harridan @ August 21 2012, 12:36 PM BST

I don't see why prisoners can't be put to some kind of productive work, though. Even if it's only growing vegetables or something giving prisoners an 8-hour work day would alleviate some of the boredom, and might teach skills to those who didn't have any.

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I agree with this, but with the radical and controversial proposal that they earn a decent wage and half of it goes to the victim and the other half is put aside for the criminal on release.

When prisoners are released, most of them have no money or support network, a lot of them can't even find a place to live, so they immediately fall back into criminal ways. Getting them to earn a bit towards their future status in society would be an excellent idea.

If they're not given a wage and are a new form of slave labour, then buying shares in G4S would be a wise move.

Quote: zooo @ August 21 2012, 12:38 PM BST

Better than doing it on bunnies.

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In the olden days, instead of killing a rabbit to see if you were pregnant, you could have gone to Holloway Prison and sliced opened some lags uterus instead. You are a lovely person zooo.

Perhaps prisons for severe offenders should be made less expensive to the tax payer and the prisoners made to work to live.

Perhaps we should convert a remote island such as Thule Island (near South Georgia) into a prison by removing from the destroyed Argentinian Naval station any easy means of making a boat.

No guards, we just drop off new prisoners by helicopter or parachute & drop tents and some supplies (mostly seeds & fishing rods) by parachute from time to time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Island

The stats seem to show that in the US the total cost of a death penalty case up to and including the actual killing is significantly more than the total cost of a life without parole case, calculated to the end of a prisoner's life.

The appeals process can take 15-20 years anyway, but even ignoring that the initial trial seems to be much more costly. Of course the stats could have been skewed to fit an agenda, but there are news reports saying that some states are considering dropping the death penalty due to the high cost.

Maybe the UK could come up with a cut price version, but I expect it would be difficult/impossible given human rights legislation etc.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ August 21 2012, 12:44 PM BST

In the olden days, instead of killing a rabbit to see if you were pregnant, you could have gone to Holloway Prison and sliced opened some lags uterus instead. You are a lovely person zooo.

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Sounds good to me.