I read the news today oh boy! Page 713

Quote: Harridan @ March 21 2012, 9:42 PM GMT

Did you listen to the 911 call that was in the BBC report? You can hear the boy screaming for help and the woman who made the call said that the screaming stopped after the gunshot. It doesn't sound like self-defence. And even if you kill someone purely in self-defence there should still be a thorough investigation. Anyone could claim self-defence as long as the killing looked haphazard and there were no witnesses, otherwise.

Big supporters of individual rights, as long as you don't trespass, because all rights are forfeit then.

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Absolutely, in the case of Tony Martin he got a serious sentence when he shot 2 burglars.

The courts took a dim view that he chased one who was running away and shot him in the back.

Careful about giving individual citizens more than the courts.

Quote: sootyj @ March 21 2012, 9:44 PM GMT

I'm torn on this. I certainly think you've made the argument for an armed citizenry.

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Amazing. This makes you think people owning guns is a good idea? no gun = no dead teenager.

Quote: DaButt @ March 21 2012, 9:35 PM GMT

I'm fairly certain that his handgun was taken from him as evidence.

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Well you would hope so!

Quote: sootyj @ March 21 2012, 9:46 PM GMT

Absolutely, in the case of Tony Martin he got a serious sentence when he shot 2 burglars.

The courts took a dim view that he chased one who was running away and shot him in the back.

Careful about giving individual citizens more than the courts.

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I misrepresented myself. I was being ironic saying that all rights are forfeit if you trespass. Definitely not what I think.

Quote: Harridan @ March 21 2012, 9:42 PM GMT

Did you listen to the 911 call that was in the BBC report? You can hear the boy screaming for help and the woman who made the call said that the screaming stopped after the gunshot. It doesn't sound like self-defence. And even if you kill someone purely in self-defence there should still be a thorough investigation. Anyone could claim self-defence as long as the killing looked haphazard and there were no witnesses, otherwise.

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First of all, there was -- and will continue to be -- a thorough investigation.

A report I read said that the cops couldn't tell who was doing the screaming. Even if it was the teenager, if he attacked the man in any way, tried to grab the man's gun or reached inside his waistband or pocket, then the man would be seen as acting in self-defence and the shooting was justified.

Quote: Harridan @ March 21 2012, 9:47 PM GMT

Amazing. This makes you think people owning guns is a good idea? no gun = no dead teenager.

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That has to be the most simplistic, fairy tale view of any given topic ever. Firearms are inanimate objects, neither good nor evil and Britain has the toughest gun laws in the entire world.

Yet there are shootings on the streets every month. These shootings are not carried out by law abiding citizens but criminals and the mentally insane. In just about every case where a legally owned firearm was used in a murder, the police have been at fault for granting a firearm license to someone unsuitable to own a gun.

If you ban guns, you do not ban murder. If you ban law abiding citizens from owning guns, you are either a very oppressive government afraid of your own electorate or you have a very naive view of crime and murder.

Putting your hand in your pocket is an attack worthy of death now? I know this guy thought the kid was a threat, but you can't kill people with impunity just because you perceive a threat where there is none.

Quote: Renegade Carpark @ March 21 2012, 9:53 PM GMT

That has to be the most simplistic, fairy tale view of any given topic ever. Firearms are inanimate objects, neither good nor evil and Britain has the toughest gun laws in the entire world.

Yet there are shootings on the streets every month. These shootings are not carried out by law abiding citizens but criminals and the mentally insane. In just about every case where a legally owned firearm was used in a murder, the police have been at fault for granting a firearm license to someone unsuitable to own a gun.

If you ban guns, you do not ban murder. If you ban law abiding citizens from owning guns, you are either a very oppressive government afraid of your own electorate or you have a very naive view of crime and murder.

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If this guy had not had a gun this teenager would not be dead.

Quote: Harridan @ March 21 2012, 9:47 PM GMT

Amazing. This makes you think people owning guns is a good idea? no gun = no dead teenager.

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Not being where you shouldn't be = no dead teenager.

Quote: sootyj @ March 21 2012, 9:44 PM GMT

I mean in the UK a night in the cells is a bit of a right of passage (never spent a night there....)

I'm torn on this. I certainly think you've made the argument for an armed citizenry. But this feels lax.

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An arrest record can cost a person his current and future employment. Prisons, as I'm sure you're aware, are not nice places and nobody should spend even a minute in one if there's no evidence of criminal activity.

Justifiable homicides happen every day in this country. Just search Google's news archives for INTRUDER SHOT or some such phrase. This case is getting attention because it happened away from the shooter's residence and it was an unarmed, not-quite-adult African-American who was killed. Young African-American males shoot each other by the tens of thousands every year but they're mostly ignored by the press and activists because they aren't useful in the "concealed carry laws are bad" and "racism is alive and well in white America" campaigns.

Quote: Harridan @ March 21 2012, 9:54 PM GMT

If this guy had not had a gun this teenager would not be dead.

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Um, you've never heard of knives, baseball bats, tire irons, etc.?

The poor man who died in the London riots was punched and killed. How do you go about banning that?

Harridan sorry this debates been going on these threads for years and DaButt has persuaded me on this one.

And with Tony Martin I meant it was an example on such a serious issue should be treated seriously.

I suppose none of you have ever taken a shortcut before? He wasn't trespassing in someone's bedroom, he was walking down a private street. How can you honestly say he got what was coming to him? What a bunch of bastards you are.

If you would like a gun, f**k off to America! That's part of their culture, fine.

Now must we always have this same discussion on here? America allows guns, we don't really over here; different cultures, laws, views, end of.

Quote: Harridan @ March 21 2012, 9:58 PM GMT

What a bunch of bastards you are.

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Please see my earlier comment about bleeding heart liberals and emotional shitfest.

Thank you.

As for no gun no death.

Sorry but the UK has a perfectly healthy rate of murders and maimings with fists, knives and bottles of bleach.

The problem is merely by being armed and agressive the criminal knows he out matches the citizen everytime.

I always endlessly and pointlessly repeat the following stat. In Israel the national bus company found that you only needed an armed guard on 5% of buses to disuade violent (in this case fanatical criminals) to the point of irrelevance. Similar studies apply to aircraft.

Just because you're decent and upstanding doesn't mean the other guy is.

Don't people watch westerns anymore?