Quote: AJGO @ February 7 2012, 10:31 PM GMTIn fairness, he's proved he can go lower
He'll be six-feet lower when the Scousers catch up with him 
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And still insist that his epitaph reads 'the fortieth'
Patrick Barclay's an arse, as his articles about the JT saga this week demonstrate all too well, but I'm not sure I get this - is the problem that Liverpool fans think Heysel never happened? Or are they thinking he's referring to Hillsborough? Heysel's an inconvenient truth, especially given what happened later, but it's a truth nonetheless. Liverpool fans killed people. They aren't the only club's fans to have killed people, but they are among the champs in terms of numbers. It was a while ago, true, but it's a bit weird to pretend it never happened.
But Badge, you can't look at these things logically - otherwise you are viewed as an unfeeling evil bastard.
Whenever they have an inquiry to determine who was responsible for the deaths at Hillsborough, the real perpertrators are never, ever named. 50,000 Liverpool fans showed up at the ground without tickets and attempted to force their way in no matter what the cost.
But to even mention that fact is enough to get you murdered. Is it right? No.
As for Patrick Barclay bringing it up as a witty response on Twitter, it was totally unprofessional and he deserves whatever stick is coming to him.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ February 8 2012, 1:23 AM GMTBut Badge, you can't look at these things logically - otherwise you are viewed as an unfeeling evil bastard.
Whenever they have an inquiry to determine who was responsible for the deaths at Hillsborough, the real perpertrators are never, ever named. 50,000 Liverpool fans showed up at the ground without tickets and attempted to force their way in no matter what the cost.
But to even mention that fact is enough to get you murdered. Is it right? No.
As for Patrick Barclay bringing it up as a witty response on Twitter, it was totally unprofessional and he deserves whatever stick is coming to him.
But he hasn't brought up Hillsborough. He's brought up Heysel. He's wrong to do either, but the reaction of you and the earlier tweetees seem to miss that.
Quote: Badge @ February 8 2012, 1:27 AM GMTBut he hasn't brought up Hillsborough. He's brought up Heysel. He's wrong to do either..
Lost you there, Badge. There may be concerns about the way he did it, but surely he can broach the subject?
Quote: Badge @ February 8 2012, 1:27 AM GMTBut he hasn't brought up Hillsborough. He's brought up Heysel. He's wrong to do either, but the reaction of you and the earlier tweetees seems to lose that.
Unfortunately, that is the immediate conclusion most people will jump to. Heysel has almost been wiped from Liverpool football history, with Hillsborough seen as a more 'noble' tragedy.
I'm not on Twitter, so my ignorance is kept firmly locked away here in the BCG, where I can only harm myself.
Quote: Stylee TingTing @ February 8 2012, 1:31 AM GMTLost you there, Badge. There may be concerns about the way he did it, but surely he can broach the subject?
I'm not a twittee, I just think "the journo" should know better than to engage in tit for tat in public. If it actually is him.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ February 8 2012, 1:33 AM GMTUnfortunately, that is the immediate conclusion most people will jump to. Heysel has almost been wiped from Liverpool football history, with Hillsborough seen as a more 'noble' tragedy
I think most Liverpudlians know there is a difference between 39 and 96, and those who don't might just be gobbing away at another perceived media persecution that isn't there.
Quote: Badge @ February 8 2012, 1:15 AM GMTPatrick Barclay's an arse, as his articles about the JT saga this week demonstrate all too well
I remember when England were looking for a new manager after the Steve McClaren debacle, and the issue was the main topic on the 'Sunday Supplement' discussion programme on Sky. Patrick Barclay spent the majority of the hour calling for Peter Taylor to be appointed. It takes some going to look the biggest tool on a show that featured Ollie Holt and Martin Samuel, but Barclay managed it with consummate ease.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ February 8 2012, 1:23 AM GMTBut Badge, you can't look at these things logically - otherwise you are viewed as an unfeeling evil bastard.
Whenever they have an inquiry to determine who was responsible for the deaths at Hillsborough, the real perpertrators are never, ever named. 50,000 Liverpool fans showed up at the ground without tickets and attempted to force their way in no matter what the cost.
But to even mention that fact is enough to get you murdered. Is it right? No.
As for Patrick Barclay bringing it up as a witty response on Twitter, it was totally unprofessional and he deserves whatever stick is coming to him.
Sigh. RC, where exactly are you getting your statistics for the Hillsborough distater? 50,000 fans turned up without tickets and tried to force their way into the game? That is bollocks, absolute bollocks, and you are not able to back that up with any shred of evidence.
We have discussed Hillsborough on this thread before, and to save having to retype the contributing factors for the disaster again, you can see my response to the last load of ill-informed bullshit here:
Harry Redknapp has been acquitted. Let's hope the police try and find the REAL culprit.
Quote: Badge @ February 8 2012, 1:15 AM GMTPatrick Barclay's an arse, as his articles about the JT saga this week demonstrate all too well, but I'm not sure I get this - is the problem that Liverpool fans think Heysel never happened? Or are they thinking he's referring to Hillsborough? Heysel's an inconvenient truth, especially given what happened later, but it's a truth nonetheless. Liverpool fans killed people. They aren't the only club's fans to have killed people, but they are among the champs in terms of numbers. It was a while ago, true, but it's a bit weird to pretend it never happened.
The Liverpool reaction to people bringing up Heysel to attack the club is complex, with numerous different factors involved. Firstly there is the fact that Heysel was a very dark hour for our club, with the reality being that a section of our fans behaved in an appalling way which resulted in the death of innocent people. With this comes shame and guilt, not just in that very small section who were responsible, but amid the overwhelming majority of us who weren't. People don't like to be confronted with it, as it's a painful memory (the reason why people who hate the club do it). We have tried as best we can to honour the memories of the 39 who died, to make sure that they aren't forgotten, and also to try and build bridges with Juventus. When people throw up Heysel at us, it's seen as using a horrible tragedy in a flippant and disrespectful way to those who died. It's sick to use something so serious in such an off-hand and cheap way to score points.
Another factor is that when people taunt Liverpool fans with Heysel, they are taunting people who were no more responsible for it than they were themselves. It's stupid. 99.99% of Liverpool fans had nothing to do with the fighting in the build up to the game. I've had wankers chanting "murderer" at games. Me? I was five at the time and watching on TV. I'm no more a murderer than you are.
Danny Dyer did a series on football hooligans and travelled over to Italy and met members of Juve's hooligan firm. Something struck me as interesting. The Juve hooligan firm stated that they didn't just hate Liverpool, they hated all English fans. Fans of Arsenal, Chelsea, Man U... everyone. We're all scum regardless of which club we support. We're all responsible. Interesting because this is the same logic that some fans of other English clubs are using towards Liverpool fans when using Heysel to point score. That small section of United fans who chant "murderers", would have that chanted at them by Juve's firm. Neither is logical.
Finally. There is also thought within Liverpool that all responsibility for the disaster was unjustly laid totally and unequivocally on the shoulders of Liverpool football club. There is animosity because of this, and frustration that such a simplistic view of the disaster as "Liverpool murdered Juventus fans" is the common accepted view of what went on, without people looking into other contributing factors which could have easily been avoided, and the match being played without anybody dying. Namely the decision by UEFA to play the game in a crumbling, derelict stadium; despite Liverpool's pleas to choose a more appropriate venue. A ticket allocation scheme which led to a "neutral fan area" next to the Liverpool section being dominated by Juventus fans. Fans of BOTH sides being involved in the fighting which led to the collapse of a wall. And of course, the absolutely shocking policing of the event.
Unfortunately, the Suarez racism debacle and the crowd reaction hasn't made it easy for anyone to love Liverpool fans recently.
And yes, my statistics about the number of ticketless fans at Hillsborough is completely wrong, so I apologise for that.
However, to portray the Liverpool fans of the 80s as some sort of misguided and misunderstood band of innocents is also 'bollocks'.
Quote: Gerry McDonnell @ February 8 2012, 12:20 PM GMTHarry Redknapp has been acquitted.
The most popular man in football just got more popular. I bet the ridiculous FA are now desperately looking for a bizarre excuse why not to give him the England job. Wouldn't be surprised to see Capello asked to stay on noww, but I don't think he wants to.
Quote: Renegade Carpark @ February 8 2012, 1:14 PM GMTAnd yes, my statistics about the number of ticketless fans at Hillsborough is completely wrong, so I apologise for that.
However, to portray the Liverpool fans of the 80s as some sort of misguided and misunderstood band of innocents is also 'bollocks'.
Fair play to you.
The Liverpool fans of the 80's are the same as now. Most are decent and good natured people, a small handful are dickheads. In my experience this applies to all clubs.