Quote: Tim Walker @ December 7 2011, 1:15 PM GMT(the only truly funny Republican)
I don't know about that - Sarah Palin was comic genius.
Strikes and such like Page 6
Quote: sootyj @ December 7 2011, 5:16 AM GMTIt actually takes and please note the word ABNORMALLY strong resilience to not sucumb. If you're a student to be the one person in old clothes not going out, or if you're a poor family the only one not giving nice presents at Christmas.
Quote: DaButt @ December 7 2011, 7:32 AM GMTNo it doesn't. It takes a modicum of common sense and God help us if our youngsters don't possess it.
DaButt, you need to quit the rodeo circuit and start reading some books. Start with 'Engineering Consent' by Edward Bernays.
The tagline of DaButt's first movie.
Would be
"He doesn't just ride bulls he talks bull!"
Quote: billwill @ December 7 2011, 1:13 PM GMTPayday Loan companies are the "Spawn of the Devil" in my opinion.
Some of them have interest rates that amount to 800,000 % per annum.
Using them is only likely to drive anyone deeper & deeper into debt.
nb the US has some extremely impressive anti usury laws, which we are only just catching upto.
Hence why some of their lenders are setting up shop here.
It would appear in some respects the US learned more from the crash than we did.
Quote: dellas @ December 7 2011, 9:19 AM GMTTrue Sooty, but think America 'Social security system' consists of vouchers for supermarkets only, is this true? an individual has no choice? thanks Dabutt.
US social security is another place where they're ahead of us. It's much more like our tax credits a top up to low salary to enable people to maintain some sort of quality of life.
Most schemes are getting replaced by commercial welfare loans. Which have to be repaid by taking on a job, any job, any where.
Quote: DaButt @ December 6 2011, 6:39 PM GMT( Reply to Nat Wicks): Spare me, I'm not picking on you.You admitted that you're in this position because of mistakes you made..
Well yeaaah.. you take responsibility for your own actions..
Quote: DaButt @ December 6 2011, 6:39 PM GMT..don't try to shift the blame to the banks.
Hmmmmm.. but isn't that like a burglar saying: "It was your fault, because you left your window open.."
??
It's a trust thing, isn't it? So.. who's "at fault"?
The whole schtick was grossly mis-sold to the generally-hardworking and honest "ordinary" public who put their trust in these institutions..
..and who got lied to..
The Banks (et al) have been and are still being intrinsically dishonest..
They're cheats..
So.. "blame"..
I blame the banks 100%. They're the essentially dishonest ones using the essentially honest ones.. it's all over society at every level..the same human trait..
And people who fall for this stuff (and I know I have) and who have their trust destroyed get rightfully angry and hurt..
..and some comments put them down..
..make it their "fault"..
Hmmmm..
Quote: DaButt @ December 6 2011, 6:39 PM GMTIt's a learning experience and part of growing up..
Yep.. believing what are subsequently revealed to be lies can be traumatic, though.. trust broken and all that..
Quote: DaButt @ December 6 2011, 6:39 PM GMT..we've all been there.
Well.. I know what you mean..
I only just learnt recently that in the US, before the crunch, lenders were approving mortgages without even requiring the applicants to produce any evidence of their income (e.g. pay slips).
One can, of course, talk about personal responsibility, but corporate responsibility is the main issue. The vast majority of people, if they can't get as much money as they want/need, will not go out and steal it - they will simply modify their expectations. Some, lured by the fact that credit was far too easily available (coupled with our Western consumer culture), thought that they could somehow have more than they could afford. Yes, they were stupid, even greedy, but they will be paying for that foolishness for years to come.
Banks and other financial institutions, however, when their greed for increasing profits wasn't satisfied mostly did, in effect, go out and rob - from governments, pension funds and, ultimately, from the general taxpayer. Deals became deliberately byzantine and opaque and (admittedly) slack regulation was taken advantage of. In some cases, they simply broke the rules completely. What's more, the banks etc don''t have the defence of economic and fiscal ignorance of the way the system works.
And yet, it's the banker and traders which have only, to all intents and purposes, been given a small slap on the wrist. They have not been forced to learn any great lessons, they have not been forced to pay for their foolishness and greed for years to come.
Overall, what I would say (especially to DaButt) on the issue of personal responsibility is that it's very, very easy for those of us who "have" to be self-righteous. pious and judgemental towards the "have nots". But those of use who "have" generally live well off the backs of the "have nots".
Quote: Godot Taxis @ December 7 2011, 2:11 PM GMTDaButt, you need to quit the rodeo circuit and start reading some books. Start with 'Engineering Consent' by Edward Bernays.
For f**k's sake, if people are as stupid and easily influenced as you say they are, I'm going to quit my job and start selling magic beans for $50 a pop.
Quote: Stylee TingTing @ December 7 2011, 2:34 PM GMTHmmmmm.. but isn't that like a burglar saying: "It was your fault, because you left your window open.."
No, it's more like a person who knows full well about calories and their consequences but decides to eat 75 KitKats a day and then blames the resulting obesity on the "powerful" advertiser agencies.
Quote: Tim Walker @ December 7 2011, 2:53 PM GMTI only just learnt recently that in the US, before the crunch, lenders were approving mortgages without even requiring the applicants to produce any evidence of their income (e.g. pay slips).
Those were very rare cases. The majority of the problem was caused by people who bought more house than they could afford by the means of interest-only loans and adjustable rate mortgages. Those people stupidly expected that home prices would continue to grow at 30% a year and planned to cash out down the road before paying any principal. It's like a pyramid scheme: anyone who joins at the end of the run is a FOOL.
Overall, what I would say (especially to DaButt) on the issue of personal responsibility is that it's very, very easy for those of us who "have" to be self-righteous. pious and judgemental towards the "have nots". But those of use who "have" generally live well off the backs of the "have nots".
I was a single parent who raised 2 children from infancy without any financial support from their mother. I put myself through school and was even receiving food stamps at one time. I put no money down on my home (thanks to a loan from the Veterans Administration that was made possible by my military service) and my job is directly due to my military training.
I'm strictly middle class at best and I buy things I can afford. It's not rocket science to move from a place where homes sell for millions of dollars to a city where my mortgage/tax/insurance payment is less than I paid for rent in my previous location 7 years ago.
Have to say that while I'm sympathetic to anyone struggling for whatever reason, because money worries are just excruciatingly horrible, I'm shocked that so many people could be so naive and/or greedy.
I was brought up that you just do not get into debt except in emergencies. If you can't afford something, you go without, or you save and save and save. If you borrow for big things that will eventually improve your lot (like house or car, not like telly or luxuries) then you'd better have a plan B and C, and have read the small print over and over again.
The only times I've been in debt is when needing to pay rent or essential bills when unemployed or when things like rent or council tax have been raised. It is depressing having nowt, but that's just tough luck.
Yes, the banks have shat on everyone and that the government doesn't make them accept responsibility is disgusting, but that I have been responsible all my life but will probably never have a home of my own due to other people's casual approach to credit hurts a lot.
Re: this "mortgage/loan with no proof of income" thing: it's not recent, it's been going on for years. My age group was piling in to first-time property "ownership" (i.e. mortgages) from about 1984 on. Believe you me, it was really easy to get one: several people of my acquaintance weren't made to produce proof of earnings, just to fill in the application form with massaged info (lies) about wages and they weren't asked any further questions. Of course, the 1989 crash ruined a lot of them.
@DaButt: Hi.. your KitKat analogy is fine if one is cogniscent of the dangers beforehand.. it's not the same if you aren't already empirically experienced in such consequences, like getting burnt (literally) when you were a kid.. or innocently getting bitten or worse by a dog..
..and isn't it somehow beholden upon our modern society to protect the vulnerable? Isn't that what our Law(s) should be there for?
Quite a few years ago, can't remember exactly when, it came to light that many people had been mis-sold endowment mortgages. They believed what they were told because the sellers believed in the product at the time. It was possible to claim compensation to recoup losses, but the Govmnt capped this so in reality it left many people in debt.
Adults selling to adults, all of whom believed the product to be as sold, made the best choice for them at the time - not the wrong choice, not for luxuries and not out of greed.
As for paying as you go, saving and so on, sometimes life throws things at you that you couldn't possibly have budgeted for, even with a contingency plan. Personal cost of living can change, circumstances change. Even those without what some consider luxuries such as Sky TV, or what others may consider essential, like a car or mobile phone, may still get into debt out of necessity.
That can be a humiliating and demoralizing experience and criticism, blame and lack of understanding can compound those feelings.
Quote: Stylee TingTing @ December 7 2011, 5:08 PM GMT@DaButt: Hi.. your KitKat analogy is fine if one is cogniscent of the dangers beforehand.. it's not the same if you aren't already empirically experienced in such consequences, like getting burnt (literally) when you were a kid.
..and isn't it somehow beholden upon our modern society to protect the vulnerable?
We're talking about adults who know what money and debt are, who know what the ramifications of interest are. I'm right with you if they were selling mortgages and credit cards to senile senior citizens or 8-year-old kids, but as far as I know that didn't happen. These are reasonable, educated adults we're talking about and nobody put a gun to their heads when they signed the paperwork -- paperwork that clearly states the terms of the legally binding contract that they signed.
Quote: Loopey @ December 7 2011, 5:19 PM GMTQuite a few years ago, can't remember exactly when, it came to light that many people had been mis-sold endowment mortgages.
I don't know what an endowment mortgage is.
That can be a humiliating and demoralizing experience and criticism, blame and lack of understanding can compound those feelings.
I understand how it can happen and I feel sorry for those who made the wrong choice. What worries me is when people try to put the blame elsewhere.
My son is still waiting to hear about his claim for miss sold 'loan' insurance from TSB, again, banks do make it difficult to resolve these issues.
Some very interesting points raised on here, not supprised that many people have been involved with debt, suppose it will get worse with recession.
Dabutt, you mentioned 'food stamps' what are these? are they for Supermarkets?
Quote: DaButt @ December 7 2011, 5:51 PM GMTI don't know what an endowment mortgage is.
Briefly, years ago people were sold life insurance policies that were supposed to grow in value and, after a certain term, would provide money to pay off the mortgage and provide a lump sum for retirement.
Too good to be true ?
Too right it was !
Quote: dellas @ December 7 2011, 5:51 PM GMTDabutt, you mentioned 'food stamps' what are these? are they for Supermarkets?
It's the common name for government-provided food assistance. The benefits used to be paid with actual coupons (stamps) but now it's done via electronic debit cards to reduce fraud -- you used to be able to buy drugs, cars and booze from shady characters would would buy them for 50% of face value.
The assistance is based upon income and can only be used to buy approved items (no fast food, alcohol, etc.) but it's always frustrating to stand behind someone at the checkout line who pays for his/her groceries with food stamps and then buys $50 worth of alcohol, tobacco and lottery tickets. 
So Dabutt where can I buy these magic beans?
Quote: Oldrocker @ December 7 2011, 5:55 PM GMTToo good to be true ?
Too right it was !
..and you could arrange the whole lot through a Broker (endowment AND mortgage) who would "do" all the paperwork for you and apply for the mortgage through the Brokerage. Banks loved it and so did the Brokers, who took £1800 approx. on a £50,000 mortgage endowment. The scam was that you had a time limit under which you could cancel the endowment and get your endowment deposit back (around 2 months I think) and I know of some who got mortgages this way via Endowment Brokers and then who cancelled the Endowment as soon as the mortgage came through. In those cases, the Brokers had to swallow it.. and you still had the mortgage.
..but.. there were a LOT of people who, acting in all good faith, got scammed by taking out an Endowment Policy..
..and here we are again..