Well that's a valid argument. But "they all look the same" is not a very nice, or especially funny thing to say.
It's more the outsider, rejector style of humour.
Frankie Boyle Page 7
Quote: Aaron @ November 28 2011, 1:58 PM GMTSort of like a black man going to a BNP rally for his first experience of political activism: just naive.
Interesting that you make this analogy. In the 1970s the attitude towards non-whites who went to see comics who made racist jokes was pretty much "well they shouldn't be there if they're going to be offended - they should know what they're letting themselves in for". Fast forward a few decades and this now seems to be the same thing that people with disabilities (or their family members) are being told. It's curious that we still see the people who are the butt of these nasty jokes as the problem, not the jokes themselves or the people telling them (or, for that matter, those in the audience who laugh at them).
A considerate doctor? My god!
Quote: sootyj @ November 28 2011, 2:14 PM GMTWell that's a valid argument. But "they all look the same" is not a very nice, or especially funny thing to say.
It's more the outsider, rejector style of humour.
No, it's not, I agree. But, whilst obviously an oversimplification for comedic purposes, it's not exactly an innaccurate observation that certain illnesses give the sufferers specific and similar features. Crucially, it's not mean, it's not in any way saying that we should view them as 'the same', or look down on them, or that they ... I dunno, in any way deserve their predicament. Nothing like that. It's just a 'not nice' observation rather than being actively horrible and discriminatory.
Good point Dr Tim!
I think we need to say there's more than one kind of joke, not all jokes are equal. And standing up on stage mocking people who are diferent, by showing how diferent they are. It's always been kinda ugly.
Looking some stuff up on Joey Deacon recently. I was shocked by how blunt and hateful a lot of the comedy around disability is getting these days.
Quote: Tim Walker @ November 28 2011, 2:17 PM GMTInteresting that you make this analogy. In the 1970s the attitude towards non-whites who went to see comics who made racist jokes was pretty much "well they shouldn't be there if they're going to be offended - they should know what they're letting themselves in for". Fast forward a few decades and this now seems to be the same thing that people with disabilities (or their family members) are being told. It's curious that we still see the people who are the butt of these nasty jokes as the problem, not the jokes themselves or the people telling them (or, for that matter, those in the audience who laugh at them).
The nature of those jokes has changed more than a little though, has it not? Black jokes a few decades ago were often specifically nasty and belittling, built on prejudice and ignorance of black culture. These jokes about disabilities may not be nice in some cases, but I've yet to see one that states or implies in a comparable manner that the sufferers are less worthy than the healthy audience.
And yes some would respond that they are told they are 'less worthy' by proxy of being the subject of a joke, a stance which equally implies that a politician is less of a human being, a checkout girl, someone who's said something stupid at the comic's previous tour; any person who has been mentioned for the purpose of humour in the show.
Quote: Aaron @ November 28 2011, 2:23 PM GMTNo, it's not, I agree. But, whilst obviously an oversimplification for comedic purposes, it's not exactly an innaccurate observation that certain illnesses give the sufferers specific and similar features. Crucially, it's not mean, it's not in any way saying that we should view them as 'the same', or look down on them, or that they ... I dunno, in any way deserve their predicament. Nothing like that. It's just a 'not nice' observation rather than being actively horrible and discriminatory.
This is a complete misconception. For examlple, people with Down's Syndrome have just as much variation in facial and other characteristics as anyone else. The problem is that "normal" members of society tend only to visually identify the more distinctive features which relate to their Down's. To their family members and friends a person with Down's will be as distinctively identifiable as you are to people who know you. Jimmy Carr might well as made a joke about the Chinese all looking the same, because that is made on the same misconception. Of course, he wouldn't make a Chinese joke, because that would be racist and offensive.
Again agreeing with Tim.
I've known lots of diferring people with Down'es and where as there maybe some similarities. They're not that great.
But when you start saying in essence "you all look alike which is diferent to me and amusing" there's never anything kind or involving about it. Also unlike other minorities are there actual learning disabled coemdians to give the other side?
Other than Corky from Facts of Life?
Quote: Tim Walker @ November 28 2011, 2:30 PM GMTThis is a complete misconception. For examlple, people with Down's Syndrome have just as much variation in facial and other characteristics as anyone else. The problem is that "normal" members of society tend only to visually identify the more distinctive features which relate to their Down's. To their family members and friends a person with Down's will be as distinctively identifiable as you are to people who know you.
I rather thought that would be a given subtext that I didn't need to point out, and that the joke is clearly told from the point of view of someone outside that particular circle.
Quote: Aaron @ November 28 2011, 2:30 PM GMTThe nature of those jokes has changed more than a little though, has it not? Black jokes a few decades ago were often specifically nasty and belittling, built on prejudice and ignorance of black culture. These jokes about disabilities may not be nice in some cases, but I've yet to see one that states or implies in a comparable manner that the sufferers are less worthy than the healthy audience.
It's making jokes about people where the humour of the joke is purely predicated on a characteristic about them which is completely unmodifiable - whether that be their race, gender or disability. Jokes about people who have some say in the way they look/act are more acceptable because the humour is coming from aspects that are modifiable.
Quote: sootyj @ November 28 2011, 2:34 PM GMTBut when you start saying in essence "you all look alike which is diferent to me and amusing"
Far be it from me to be defending a joke that I myself found unfunny, but that was specifically not saying that the sufferers were amusing. It's playing on the name of the coaches given that - to an outsider, not a close family member - there are notable visual similarities in many sufferers to the outsider.
It wasn't much of a joke really, do Down's Syndrome all look alike? I don't think so, having worked in a residential home years ago and having a cousin same age as me who's Downs. I never had a problem telling them apart. But I think Carr is right in that most things are 'up for grabs' as far as comedy goes, don't think the outrage is going to harm his career.
I think there has to be a distinction between hearing a bad taste joke in a comedy show setting and coming across discrimination in our everyday lives...one is acceptable in that context(to me), the other wouldn't be and I'd challenge or stand up for anyone who I saw being bullied or insulted.
But my point is not all jokes are equal.
A joke say celebrating rape may be the funniest joke in the world, but is it ever truly worth telling? Similarly this joke may create a slight smile from shock or realising our own oh so naughty prejudice.
But is it worth it?
I mean how about an artist who paints Gary Glitter abusing kids in photorealistic detail. Or a marvelous opera about setting fire to Indian restaurants.
Quote: sootyj @ November 28 2011, 3:10 PM GMTI mean how about an artist who paints Gary Glitter abusing kids in photorealistic detail. Or a marvelous opera about setting fire to Indian restaurants.
I shall expect to see your sketches on these subjects in Critique within the hour!
Sorry Zooo I only write sketches for Greenpeaces about misunderstood homosexual minkey whales.