Quote: sootyj @ November 6 2011, 9:24 PM GMTI am currently studying screen writing at Birckbeck. Roughly equivlanet to taking swimming lessons on the Deck of the Titanic.
University Level Education: Your Thoughts Page 3
Can't help but suspect that if we spent a lot less of our GDP on pushing semi-illiterates through higher education and a lot more on smaller classes in primary schools that as a country we would be much better off.
Quote: TopBanana @ November 6 2011, 2:13 PM GMTIt annoys me so much when eejits in the media say 'don't got to uni - get a trade instead'.
Well...I know at least 4 dudes who have had a trade since leaving school (3 sparkies, 1 mechanic) and they're all out of work and can't get anything. That's 10 years' experience and still no job.
So, where are the jobs for those vocationally-trained people?
I have the opposite view. I struggled with with school. For some subjects I could put alot of effort in and would still end up failing. When it came time to decide if I would sit the test to apply to uni I chose not do as I knew I just wouldn't get in. The attitude I got from some people when I told them I wasn't going to go to uni was "well you'll never achieve anything in your life".
It made me feel even worse than I already did.
I'm not against going to uni, but I am against the attitude some people have that you will never "acheive" if you don't. If you want to be a doctor or teacher then that's great go and get your degree. But if your happy working in a job that doesn't require a qualification then that should be ok as well.
We can't all be surgeons, someone needs to stack the supermarket shelves and clean public spaces etc.
Like other have said I know people with Uni qualifications, vocational qualification and people who have just worked, all who have had trouble finding jobs at time.
Quote: TopBanana @ November 6 2011, 2:13 PM GMTSo, where are the jobs for those vocationally-trained people?
The job market is depressed, but there are always jobs available for the self-employed, by definition. The government regularly tells us we need more entrepreneurs, but there's no education offered at schools to encourage this, so I'd like to see courses in Entrepreneurship available, a combination of business skills, advertising and throat-cutting.
In response to the OP, my degree is in Engineering, so my workload was the same as Bigfella, but it didn't seem too bad at the time, we just got on with it.
Interesting. I didn't go to uni, the subject was never riased by my parents or school and I think the general view was that I wasn't capable of working at that academic level. When I was doing my O levels (1982) my father tried very hard to get me to do an appreticeship as that was what he had done. I didn't want this but struggled with A levels as either the subjects I liked weren't open to me or they weren't available at all. As a result of this, and girls and pubs and late nights, I failed 2 A levels and got the lowest pass in Art. But I enjoyed sixth form immensly.
After working as a trainee retail manager, which was essentially the same money as a shelf stacker with the expectation that you would do 20-30 hours unpaid overtime a week as you were in a 'management' position, I took another job, the first I was offered, there was over 4 million unemployed at the time.
They sent me to college one day a week. What I realised fairly soon was that working in a job that didn't tax me mentally had caused my brain to get lazy and stuff I'd known at school I now didn't know.
Whilst I was doing day release, 9am - 9pm, I had basically 10 hours of lectures per week. A school friend of mine who was doing a full time law degree had 8 hours of lectures a week.
We had one lecturer who was new and set his first assignment. When he gave them back out he praised one in particular that had received the heighest grade because it had been typed, extra marks for presentation, and it was substantial. The author told the rest of the group that he photocopied relevant pages from books and highlighted the paragraphs he wanted his secretary to type out. He sent off for a mountain of trade literature and used it as an Appendix to bulk up the thickness. All in all he'd done very little work but had succesfully duped the lecturer. Who told us he'd marked all of our assignments then reduced everyone's grade by 1 to encourage us to work harder on future tasks.
My wife didn't get the grades she needed at her A levels to go to her favoured university so she took a temporary job as a filing clark in the medical records department of the local hospital. She worked hard and applied for promotions and new positions as they came up. 15 years ago she did a post grad diploma in Management on a day release basis. She's now the Director of Operations and Deputy Chief Executive of the hospital. There are people she comes into contact with who did a degree then were put on a fast track management programme and are always chasing the next promotion and the higher salary. But they don't have the in depth understanding of the organisation that she has gained over almost 30 years working in several departments and at all levels.
University works for some people and not for others. Our eldest has just failed his second year seemingly because he didn't do enough work. But he tried it and we supported him in that and now he can get his lazy arse out of bed and earn a living. Once he get's back from the round the world trip he's planning.
Now that is interesting.
I went to uni and dropped out of communication and new technology studies at UEL. Which sounds like a joke in and of it's self.
But being deadly serious, it was to easy to stimulate. My A level communications tutor had treated it like a real subject. And put huge pressure on us to achieve. I couldn't get over the let down and dropped out in year one.
When I went to Uni I was emotionally immature and academically unprepared, with the result that after three years I left with no life skills, minor depression, an exhausted liver and 2.2 in a useless subject; fortunately this was before the days of student debt, so all my degree cost me was precious time.
In my current job I have colleagues with PhDs and colleagues who went into the workplace straight from school and rose on merit. The former can be arrogant and narrow-minded, with the latter are often quicker on the uptake and more imaginative in grasping implications.
You do not need to go to Uni to get an education and educations does not stop when you leave. Life should be a continuing process of self-education.
It took me 15 years after leaving UEL and a diagnosis of dyspraxia before I got back into academia.
I then achieved a whole lot more in a couple of years with a full time job. Then I ever did as a full time student.
The question is what do you do when you leave school at 18?
Quote: sootyj @ November 7 2011, 11:24 AM GMTThe question is what do you do when you leave school at 18?
Perhaps we should bring back some form of National Service? I honestly feel it would have done me more good than Uni did.
I had my name down to join Barclays Bank and when I was half way through my A levels they rang to offer me a job.
Uni or £29 a month salary?
No contest, I left school !
I don't agree with National service but I don't think there's anything wrong encouraging kids to go and work for a few years instead of going straight to Uni.
I know some people who didn't know what they wanted to do when they left school, so they intended to work for a few years before going on to study.
Some of them decided that Uni wasn't for them, others ended up studying a completly different subject to what they orginaly itended. All of them though ended up happy with their choice, I'm not sure that would have happened had they all decided to study straight from school.
Quote: Oldrocker @ November 7 2011, 11:54 AM GMTI had my name down to join Barclays Bank and when I was half way through my A levels they rang to offer me a job.
Uni or £29 a month salary?
No contest, I left school !
Sothat's when £29 a month was a decent salary?
How long ago was that?
Quote: reds @ November 7 2011, 12:22 PM GMTI don't agree with National service but I don't think there's anything wrong encouraging kids to go and work for a few years instead of going straight to Uni.
I know some people who didn't know what they wanted to do when they left school, so they intended to work for a few years before going on to study.
Some of them decided that Uni wasn't for them, others ended up studying a completly different subject to what they orginaly itended. All of them though ended up happy with their choice, I'm not sure that would have happened had they all decided to study straight from school.
Well none military, none coercive and with loads of choice. Something like YMCA or CSV or a gap year for all on a grander scale.
Where you get to develop work experience, travel, build up living skills etc.
I mean if we expect that work for the post 60 age group is changing, why not the under 21?
I took part in CSV and other similar schemes. Where I got accomadation, living expenses and no tax in exchange for 40 hours a week work. I gained a huge amount and it actually pushed me into probably the best career for myself.
Quote: Timbo @ November 7 2011, 11:39 AM GMTPerhaps we should bring back some form of National Service?
I don't agree with compulsory military service. Forcing the fatties and Softy Walters of this world over various assault courses ain't right. It'd be like gym class for those guys all over again, i.e. mocked, ridiculed and bullied.
A couple of years in the military works wonders when it comes to teaching bratty teenagers how to behave like adults. I can't think of any other program which is so successful in training men and women to be responsible, confident and reliable. Even my most lefty university professors admitted that veterans needed less coddling than other students their age.
The skills training is also superb and often leads to a lifelong career.
At 18 I didn't choose the right course. I ended up hating it and the people. After a difficult breakup and after drifting into depression and mild agoraphobia I dropped out, a couple of months into my second year.
As soon as I left I got jobs. I changed job every few months to a better paid one. I'm now doing something I don't hate, and earn more than my friends who went to uni (apart from one who is going to be a commercial pilot!).
Uni just was not right for me. I'm not built for it.