In or out? The European question. Page 2

Quote: AJGO @ October 29 2011, 3:54 PM BST

I get what you're saying but think it's important to point out that if people are legally working then they're contributing to healthcare costs and aren't claiming benefits. No-one can be blamed for wanting a better life for themselves and their families; it's the government's fault if current laws mean that there aren't enough jobs and homes to go round, not 'foreigners''.

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I'd say it was the fault of the EU govt who dominate our own. We create a good way of life just for Europe to demand we have to give it away to people from foreign lands who want it too. Insanity! There is no endless store of jobs and houses, all the surplus we once had has gone to them! And I guarantee that most of them take out far more from our NHS than put in, they are the main reason it's falling apart. 2/3 of babies now born in England are to parents born overseas! We pay for them to destroy our resources and once reasonably decent way of life. In My Own Opinion Ofcourse

The EU was a bad idea and seemed destined to fail from the start. Within the next decade or two Germany will elect someone who promises to leave the EU and it will all be over.

The Government has made its position clear; to stay in the EU but they wish to 'repatriate powers from Brussels' and they have stated this will be in the areas of employment and welfare policies.

We can safely say this is not to increase protection and union rights to British workers.

It is not a single market if British business has a free subsidy by picking the pockets of workers by slashing their minimum standards (or increasing efficiency as the Tories call it). Far from increasing our national sovereignty this a charter for starting a pan-European Dutch auction on social dumping.

I also believe like Poland and Sweden, we should have made a commitment of intent to join the Euro. This may sound like madness at the moment but you never say never in politics and it gives you a foot in the door without ever having to join until it suits your country's interests. Cameron is making a complete idiot of himself talking about leading the non-Euro group. Even Denmark has been pegged to the Deutschmark/Euro for over 30 years.

The pound hardly fluctuates against the Euro anymore and if we are just shadowing outside in the next 10-15 years with slightly higher inflation, lower growth and higher borrowing then becoming a leading player in the world's leading trade bloc is a prize worth seeking. A week is a long time in politics and should keep our long term options open.

UKIP and the Tory Euro-sceptics neo-liberals will say no to joining the Euro whatever the circumstances even if it makes us poorer and reduces our leverage in the world.

Quote: Tuumble @ October 29 2011, 3:22 PM BST

In or out only makes a difference if we can shake it all about.

Commissioner Cam has nailed it methinks

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F**k me, this Euro politics thing is piss easy. now who do I see to get my €150,000 salary.

Quote: sootyj @ October 29 2011, 4:00 PM BST

But it does help keep salaries and working conditions down.

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Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 29 2011, 4:53 PM BST

I'd say it was the fault of the EU govt who dominate our own. We create a good way of life just for Europe to demand we have to give it away to people from foreign lands who want it too. Insanity! There is no endless store of jobs and houses, all the surplus we once had has gone to them! And I guarantee that most of them take out far more from our NHS than put in, they are the main reason it's falling apart. 2/3 of babies now born in England are to parents born overseas! We pay for them to destroy our resources and once reasonably decent way of life. In My Own Opinion Ofcourse

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Agree that the country's a mess and lots of people are being done over. Just feel it's crucial that anger is directed towards government policy, not towards people that are here perfectly legally.

Just tell me why so many 'Big Issue' pitches are being taken over by East Europeans? We've enough indiginous homeless, jobless people without imnporting them.

In

Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 29 2011, 3:32 PM BST

If we come out then we will gain enormously, I reckon, both economically and socially. We won't have to get dragged down by the Euro crisis, we won't have to comply with their anti British human rights laws, that some other members seem to ignore anyway (France!).

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I assume by "their anti-British human rights law" you are referring to European Convention on Human Rights, which has nothing to do with the EU. It was drawn up by Winston Churchill's Solicitor General Sir David Maxwell Fyfe in the late 40s and from 1999 you could seek redress in a British court instead of having to get judgements from Johnny Foreigner in Strasbourg.

Without the HRA you are a subject of the crown, which essentially means an executive government, the police and other state agencies can remove your civil liberties at will or the stroke of a pen.

Americans have a more sophisticated understanding of citizen's constitutional rights and if you made the same argument to them that they should abolish their constitutional protection because some lawyers pull strokes to acquit their clients (surely not!), even Sarah Palin would think you were a fringe lunatic.

You might find this interesting though- under the Lisbon Treaty it made any EU legislation subject to the ECHR for the first time (it used to be by treaty between states). If you believe a piece of EU legislation infringes your liberty (for example the European arrest warrant) you can challenge it in a British court for the first time ever. European legislation was paramount in this country because, unlike Germany for eg, we didn't have any constitutional legislation to challenge it, but now can through the HRA.

Quote: AJGO @ October 29 2011, 5:50 PM BST

Agree that the country's a mess and lots of people are being done over. Just feel it's crucial that anger is directed towards government policy, not towards people that are here perfectly legally.

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I have no issues with people taking the opportunities life offers them.

I have huge issues with my employer having a large resource of alternate employees if they want someone cheaper.

It's steadily happening to more and more professions.

If there's one thing Nick Griffin and the people in tents outside St Pauls agree on. It;s the pernicious procapitalist nature of globalisation.

Quote: sootyj @ October 29 2011, 6:24 PM BST

I have no issues with people taking the opportunities life offers them.

I have huge issues with my employer having a large resource of alternate employees if they want someone cheaper.

It's steadily happening to more and more professions.

If there's one thing Nick Griffin and the people in tents outside St Pauls agree on. It;s the pernicious procapitalist nature of globalisation.

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That's more to do with the weakening of collective bargaining through domestic legislation. My point is that the Tories Euro-sceptic line is to intensify this process by removing common social and labour standards from UK workers.

It's ironic that the most rabid anti EU mumbo-jumbo comes from papers owned by Murdoch (bitter that his God given right to spy on private citizens is being challenged), who doesn't even live on this continent, is not a citizen of this country, his businesses pay next to no UK tax and are registered in the Caymen Islands.

Although he's quite keen on running to EU courts to try and chisel British landlords- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/8806353/Landlady-Karen-Murphy-Sky-only-have-themselves-to-blame-for-charging-too-much-for-Premier-League-games.html

Quote: bigfella @ October 29 2011, 6:19 PM BST

In

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Out!
In, out!
Shake it all about.

I think it was JohnGaunt right wing columnist in the Sun who said.

"everyone hates the HRA till they actually need it."

Referring to a bit of trouble he had.

I'd like us to be in the EU. But the fact that comissioners expenses are so huge they actually fund truly dodgy organisations is ridiculous.

I suppose I want to be in an EU that's better. And the vision of the truly unified EU scares me.

I loved how Germany issued vague threats of war if the Euro falls apart. It's like deja vu all over again.

Do you have any advice for a fella with a small willy and a lady with a bucket fanny

Quote: zooo @ October 29 2011, 6:41 PM BST

Out!
In, out!
Shake it all about.

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Does that work for you?