One of my main disappointments with Moffat this seires is that I thought his opening two parter overshadowed the rest of his own offerings. The other three episodes he wrote, all 'arc' ones, weren't a patch on it. In fact, most of what was to come was overshadowed by TIA/DOTM.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ October 6 2011, 3:02 PM BSTWhy have they been your favourite?
I'm just constantly overwhelmed by how densely packed the scripts are. There's nary a wasted line. He manages to combine great action set-pieces, character development, jokes, interweaving long-arc stories, genuine emotion, intriguing sci-fi devices...
He's not afraid to use unconventional plot structures and piss all over established formula either. It may come across as masturbatory to some, but his episodes are less likely than others to begin with the Doctor stepping out of the box with "Oh, so we're in Ancient Greece this week..."
You can nit-pick at the edges, but as television goes it doesn't get much better.
In non-Moffat standalone monster-o-the-week episodes, I usually just listen to the audio while doing something else with my eyes. Moffat doesn't just make me *have* to pay attention, he makes me *want* to.
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 6 2011, 3:11 PM BSTI'm just constantly overwhelmed by how densely packed the scripts are. There's nary a wasted line. He manages to combine great action set-pieces, character development, jokes, interweaving long-arc stories, genuine emotion, intriguing sci-fi devices...
Yes, he doesn't waste words. At a line level the scripts are good - despite the odd fairly embarrassing and unsuccessful attempt at lyricism. You would expect this to be the case as Moffat made his name writing TV comedy, which needs to sparkle at a line level.
As to set pieces - they are his stock-in-trade - it's not by accident that he has introduced a pre-credits teaser into the show - this is what he writes best.
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 6 2011, 3:11 PM BSTHe's not afraid to use unconventional plot structures and piss all over established formula either. It may come across as masturbatory to some, but his episodes are less likely than others to begin with the Doctor stepping out of the box with "Oh, so we're in Ancient Greece this week..."
Again, this is what gets him out of bed in the morning. He likes to create complicated plots that do not have a linear narrative. Even better if he can smash the narrative up and seed it all over the whole season so you have to piece it together bit by bit.
The problem with this approach is it excludes the casual viewer who doesn't have the time to watch the whole season (twice) and it makes a fetish out of puzzles and conundrums. What have you got when you piece it all together? Actually nothing, because the puzzle was the whole driving force of the narrative. Moffat has substituted a feeling of cleverness from seeing the whole story click together for the satisfaction you would feel from a traditional dramatic narrative playing itself out.
And since he has time-travel and the ability to invent any technology at his disposal his plots don't seem all that clever since he can basically invent any solution to any problem.
They also turn the show from something you can get involved in to a spectacle you watch unfolding because he has all the cards and is controlling the way you view the narrative. An example of this is the black marks appearing on the character's arms to remind them they have seen the Silence. We see the marks appearing but we don't see the Silence appearing to the characters even though we are supposed to be a fourth wall viewing the action. The tension created is dishonest.
Incidentally, although Moffat hasn't written an episode that opened "Oh, so we're in Ancient Greece this week..." He is just as predictable - I can think of at least four stories that begin with the Doctor trying catch someone's attention by altering history. It was great the first time...
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 6 2011, 3:11 PM BSTYou can nit-pick at the edges, but as television goes it doesn't get much better.
F**k off.
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 6 2011, 3:11 PM BSTIn non-Moffat standalone monster-o-the-week episodes, I usually just listen to the audio while doing something else with my eyes. Moffat doesn't just make me *have* to pay attention, he makes me *want* to.
Fair enough.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ October 6 2011, 5:00 PM BSTThey also turn the show from something you can get involved in to a spectacle you watch unfolding because he has all the cards and is controlling the way you view the narrative. An example of this is the black marks appearing on the character's arms to remind them they have seen the Silence. We see the marks appearing but we don't see the Silence appearing to the characters even though we are supposed to be a fourth wall viewing the action. The tension created is dishonest.
For me, those marks are very effective, it puts you on edge and makes you feel, a bit, what the characters are supposed to be feeling.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ October 6 2011, 2:05 PM BSTHe's definitely there until at least 2013.
it isnt really his contract that ends in 2013 its the contract of a robot piloted by a mini Stephen Moffet.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ October 6 2011, 5:09 PM BSTFor me, those marks are very effective, it puts you on edge and makes you feel, a bit, what the characters are supposed to be feeling.
I did like that scene. Us seeing the monsters each time would have totally ruined that.
Have any of you lot ever seen Primer?
Arguably the definitive time travel headf**k movie.
I expect it would set off Godot's aneurysm about 45 minutes in.
Maybe a little too hetero for Stotty's tastes.
Probably a bit too complex for the ladies too, zooo.
Highly recommended for everyone else though.
I'm sure it's the perfect film for men with cute likkle musical ponies in their avatars.
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 6 2011, 5:59 PM BSTHave any of you lot ever seen Primer?
Arguably the definitive time travel headf**k movie.
I expect it would set off Godot's aneurysm about 45 minutes in.
Maybe a little too hetero for Stotty's tastes.
Probably a bit too complex for the ladies too, zooo.
Highly recommended for everyone else though.
I'm everyone else! I loved it!
Moffat has said that next year is a return to stand alone stories. about time to
F**k the casual viewer IMHO.
Classic Who, with its 5 part storylines and no iPlayer never pandered to them either.
I like having a story arc.
And even a crap Who like the pirates one is about a million percent better than not having any Doctor Who at all.
Quote: Afinkawan @ October 6 2011, 7:05 PM BSTF**k the casual viewer IMHO.
Classic Who, with its 5 part storylines and no iPlayer never pandered to them either.
I like having a story arc.
And even a crap Who like the pirates one is about a million percent better than not having any Doctor Who at all.
+1
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 6 2011, 5:59 PM BSTHave any of you lot ever seen Primer?
Yes. I had no idea at the end what was going on.
Timecrimes is another good recent time travel film.
Quote: Badhead @ October 6 2011, 6:48 PM BSTMoffat has said that next year is a return to stand alone stories. about time to
There were about seven this series.
Quote: Afinkawan @ October 6 2011, 7:05 PM BSTF**k the casual viewer IMHO.
It is odd that people complain that viewers who only watch every third or fourth episode might not know what's going on. Yes, screw the people who watch every week, what about the people who watch three episodes per series!
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 6 2011, 2:02 PM BSTThey should bring back William Hartnell. That would be pretty cool. Bring the wheel full circle. I'm sure CGI is advanced enough nowadays. Just Photoshop a grey wig onto Gollum, bingo!
Is Richard Hurndall still around? He made a pretty convincing William Hartnell.
Quote: Afinkawan @ October 6 2011, 7:05 PM BSTF**k the casual viewer IMHO.
As much as I approve of your sentiment, especially if you add as a rider 'f**k the the dedicated viewer as well', it is the casual viewer who decides whether the programme gets made or not.
Who is in the unique position of having been cancelled and brought back. In the thirteen years it was off the air a lot of stuff got thrashed out by some clever people who were involved in the show, involved in TV and involved in Media studies. The reasons for the show's failure and cancellation were utterly pinned down.
Now it's the nature of things that every one thinks they can break the pattern or do things differently and I wouldn't expect Moffat to consult with anyone else before making the show in his own image but unfortunately, the way he's making it is known not to work and if it continues in the same vein - which there is indication it won't - it will get cancelled. Maybe you can't believe that, but I watched it happen before in real time. It starts by cutting out the casual viewer - by using too many cannon references, over-complicated time-based stories or story arcs. Ratings begin to slip and the show becomes niche and 'cult viewing'.
To have the Who we want, with plenty of budget and plenty of high-profile marketing it needs to be accessible. I don't think anyone tuning in cold to this season would feel it was anything other than a cult, which they couldn't full appreciate without genning up on the web or elsewhere.
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ October 6 2011, 5:59 PM BSTI expect it would set off Godot's aneurysm about 45 minutes in.
Quote: Timbo @ October 6 2011, 10:49 PM BSTIs Richard Hurndall still around? He made a pretty convincing William Hartnell.
He would be a 100 years old if he was but unfortunately he isn't. Actually he was nothing like William Hartnell in either looks or manner, but no videotapes of the first Doctors shows had been released at that point so for many he just had to look like the photographs - which he didn't since JNT couldn't cast for shit.