London Open Mics / Open Spots Page 6

Quote: Anthony Miller @ August 30 2011, 8:09 PM BST

I don't think you have the right to ask people to do unpaid manual labour for you and I think they have a right not to comply with stupid demands that they bring your audience for you. I'm not telling them to ruin your gig or turn up and be nasty I'm just telling them if I was them I wouldn't be obligated to bring mates by a workplace bully who's so ungenerous as to offer gigs only on the stipulation you do unpaid manual labour for him. It is not okay for you to pressurise people into bringing your audience or not get a gig (in effect blacklisting those who have run out of mates). We're here to help them not take you too seriously.

I'm sorry but if you take the piss out of people and they go back on their "word" given under duress... you get what you deserve.
Still at least you are upfront at the time of booking which gives people the chance to boycot you if they want. I suppose that's something.
But it's interesting you won't actually name anyone who operates in this way.
Why's that? shame...?
The fact you have found legal loopholes in NMW law does not and will not make something ethical.

Personally as far as I'm concerned it's not a business agreement unless there's money changing hands so why should these people feel obligated to keep their word?

"Are you advocating comics show up in revolt because they don't abide by a rule they've already agreed to? Aren't we only as good as our word?"

You say the gig is not professional then appeal to their sense of professionalism ...kind of gives the game away?

Not to say I'm not pissed off when people don't show. If they have to drop out that's fine as long as I know before the gig and can rebook ...ideally at least 6 hours before the show. But come on their are limits on what you can reasonably demand of people?
I would never make bringing mates a stipulation for my gig - it is unethical.
I've explained why I think its unethical over and over.
If you don't get it still fine.
Can't hear must feel and all that.

No, I don't believe in non-monetised gigs. If they did exist how would anyone distinguish them...? The only people who know the budget of a gig are the promoter and the venue owner. And I don't believe anyone runs gigs in commercial premesis with no commercial ambitions - the fact they can't realise their ambitions doesn't make them innocent. If money didn't matter why use a pub at all, why not go round someone's house? It makes no sense.

Sorry but you gave the game away when you said you would run bringers if you could.
"if I were to run a proper open mic I wouldn't think twice about making it a free bringer if it helped me get a decent crowd in"

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"Giving their word under duress"? What duress is that? Making a request? Giving a person the power of free choice? There's a big difference between pressurising someone and making a request of them. If I were to take to the streets demanding comics work my night then force them to bring a paid guest you would certainly have a point. There's a big difference between slave labour and an unpaid promoter making a voluntary request of a new act for the sake of getting a few more audience members into a room.

You keep talking about "unpaid manual labour" but I really don't see, given that you're so against it, why the rules should be different for any promoter who chooses to showcase a comic and not pay them. I'm curious, if a person who runs a non-bringer passes a bucket or charges admission and doesn't pay their acts equitably, is that a CRAPP no-no? I had a scan of the site but it is LONG.

Are you suggesting with your "giving the game away" line that I'm lying when I say I don't run a bringer gig? I hope not because you'd not only be bang wrong, you'd also be proving just how unfocused your boycotting/blackballing campaign is.

"There's a big difference between slave labour and an unpaid promoter making a voluntary request of a new act for the sake of getting a few more audience members into a room."

No there's not because many of them don't know that this is abnornal and that they have a choice because they are completely new. Only the ignorant actually believe that this is normal and that this is a "right of passage" everyone else has been through. These systems of booking work in my experience by bullying the new, naive and easily intimidated. Sorry but I see little difference in leaning on the newest acts to bring mates and slave labour.

You keep on about unpaid promoters.
I have to say I don't know of hardly any who don't have commercial interests in running their gigs.

Even if the entire function of the gig really was purely stage time for the acts why do you think that gives you the right to ask people you don't know to do unpaid manual labour for you for free in order to do what is meant to be a job interview for a paid spot? If they're bringing the audience what is your function? If you told them it was not a job interview and would not lead to paid work then you might be able to justify your "non commercial bringer" at a stretch as there would be no confusion as to whether it was or was not a commercial gig. But they still only have your word that you're not being paid for putting it on.

Trying to blur the argument into how much acts should be paid in general won't work either. CRAPP is about the single issue of unpaid manual labour being laid off onto open spots, not about when and if and how much people should be paid. Most acts will gig for nothing and even for free if they want to ...right up to the very top of the circuit. That is why it is taking the living piss to impose on that goodwill that they "bring" the audience as well.

If the acts are happy we be happy.
The only reason the CRAPP exists is because a lot of people are not happy.

So I would say you tell the acts it's not a job interview for a paid gig and will lead nowhere and that you have no other commercial promoting interests and we might buy that it's a "non-commercial" bringer but we still don't agree with the principle of bringer shows - commercial or uncommercial.

Quote: Anthony Miller @ August 30 2011, 9:48 PM BST

"There's a big difference between slave labour and an unpaid promoter making a voluntary request of a new act for the sake of getting a few more audience members into a room."

No there's not because many of them don't know that this is abnornal and that they have a choice because they are completely new. Only the ignorant actually believe that this is normal and that this is a "right of passage" everyone else has been through. These systems of booking work in my experience by bullying the new, naive and easily intimidated. Sorry but I see little difference in leaning on the newest acts to bring mates and slave labour.

You keep on about unpaid promoters.
I have to say I don't know of hardly any who don't have commercial interests in running their gigs.

Even if the entire function of the gig really was purely stage time for the acts why do you think that gives you the right to ask people you don't know to do unpaid manual labour for you for free in order to do what is meant to be a job interview for a paid spot? If they're bringing the audience what is your function? If you told them it was not a job interview and would not lead to paid work then you might be able to justify your "non commercial bringer" at a stretch as there would be no confusion as to whether it was or was not a commercial gig. But they still only have your word that you're not being paid for putting it on.

Trying to blur the argument into how much acts should be paid in general won't work either. CRAPP is about the single issue of unpaid manual labour being laid off onto open spots, not about when and if and how much people should be paid. Most acts will gig for nothing and even for free if they want to ...right up to the very top of the circuit. That is why it is taking the living piss to impose on that goodwill that they "bring" the audience as well.

If the acts are happy we be happy.
The only reason the CRAPP exists is because a lot of people are not happy.

So I would say you tell the acts it's not a job interview for a paid gig and will lead nowhere and that you have no other commercial promoting interests and we might buy that it's a "non-commercial" bringer but we still don't agree with the principle of bringer shows - commercial or uncommercial.

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Why would I have to explicitly tell a new act that a gig isn't a job interview? Who would confuse the two? A job interview has absolutely nothing to do with a stand up spot. One is a bit of stage time, the other is a yes/no process that exists in assess whether an applicant is suitable for a job. Are you saying a new comic arrives at their first gig expecting to walk out with a job as a professional comic? I'd have to agree that would be extraordinarily naive. Personally I credit people with a bit more sense than that.

It's also becoming obvious for all your talk of the unfairness of unpaid labour that you believe comics should have the choice to work for free. "Choice": that's the operative word. "Choice" to work for free. "Choice" to work for free under agreed conditions. The moment you start denying people choice you're imposing your ideology on them and that's a rather ugly business.

I notice you didn't respond to the last paragraph of my previous comment. I take it I misread the implied accusation that I was lying about my status as a promoter?

"Why would I have to explicitly tell a new act that a gig isn't a job interview? Who would confuse the two?"

Anyone with any ambition.
Anyone in it for a career.
Anyone who doesn't know how the circuit works.

Why not explicitly tell them?
I tell people explicitly exactly how my gig works.
There are 10 opens, 2 paid comperes and 2 paid spots.
I tell them the size of the room, the potential turnover of the room.
And how much I can or can't pay them.
Then they can make an informed choice.

If bringers were explicit that they lead nowhere that would be bearable to us as then they could be described as truly uncommercial.

"A job interview has absolutely nothing to do with a stand up spot. One is a bit of stage time, the other is a yes/no process that exists in assess whether an applicant is suitable for a job."

Not true. The object of doing open spots at the Pear is to get a 10 spot. In that sense it is exactly a job interview. And the object of doing a 10 spot is to get a 15 spot and the object of doing a 15 is to get to compere at which point most acts are getting enough paid work they don't need us any more. But there is a system. There is progression. The open spots are an audition for paid spots. So yes, opens do and should have something to do with leading on to paid work. If you win King Gong you get an open at the store and then a 10 and eventually if you're funny a 20. If you do well Downstairs at the Kings Head on Thursday you get a Sunday and then a Saturday. If you do well at the Cafe on a Wednesday Noel might put you on a Thursday ...it's called progression and it's what most people are ultimately looking for out of open spots. Of course some gigs exist purely for practice but that doesn't mean the acts should work for less than nothing. Bringers have no progession. They cannot. It is not in their nature.

"The moment you start denying people choice you're imposing your ideology on them"

Tory dogshit. I'm not denying anybody a choice.
I'm simply telling people I think are being f**ked over what I think being f**ked over is.
That's my choice. Whether they agree with it or not is their choice.

Is this one going to run & run?
Or should we?

For the record I don't see much problem with pay to play, how much is it? a pound?
I do wish some of these comedians would get proper jobs though, whenever I went to any of these everyone kept poncing my Cigarettes.

Bring a friend, be forced to bring one if they want, and don't leave when your mate has performed.

It's a very crowded market in London & the audience appetite isn't always geared towards beginners.

If they can find a way to make it work, then fair play I say, no'ones being forced into anything.

Is it true your a pimp now Steve?

[quote name="Steve Sunshine" post="803872" date="August 30 2011, 10:26 PM BST"
If they can find a way to make it work, then fair play I say, no'ones being forced into anything.[/quote]
Yeh no one's forced, quite the mack daddy

nb I have a gig next week anyone want to come and see me do my thang?

Sounds like a possibility, what day?

8 september.

Now you'll have to leaflet for 2 hours and sit on the headline acts knee, is that ok?

(crikey the great steve sunshine coming to my act better get the sootyj a game ready)

Quote: Anthony Miller @ August 30 2011, 10:22 PM BST

"Why would I have to explicitly tell a new act that a gig isn't a job interview? Who would confuse the two?"

Anyone with any ambition.
Anyone in it for a career.
Anyone who doesn't know how the circuit works.

Why not explicitly tell them?
I tell people explicitly exactly how my gig works.
There are 10 opens, 2 paid comperes and 2 paid spots.
I tell them the size of the room, the potential turnover of the room.
And how much I can or can't pay them.
Then they can make an informed choice.

If bringers were explicit that they lead nowhere that would be bearable to us as then they could be described as truly uncommercial.

"The moment you start denying people choice you're imposing your ideology on them"

Tory dogshit. I'm not denying anybody a choice.
I'm simply telling people I think are being f**ked over what I think being f**ked over is.
That's my choice. Whether they agree with it or not is their choice.

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To say a person showing up for a first gig might expect to get a job as a paid comedian out of it is to take a very dim view on them as an intelligent human being. Are you seriously saying that you tell every new act you have on "by the way, at the end of this gig I won't be employing you as a professional comedian. Just wanted to make that clear"?

As for all the other things you explicitly tell your acts, bully for you. I think it's good to be square with people you're working with. Of course I also think the same counts for a person who adds to the conversation with something like "You'll need to bring a guest if you want to perform at my free gig. Nobody is getting paid, including me, and I'd like for there to be a decent sized audience for your show. I'll do what I can to bring in a crowd but given that the public tend not to come out in big numbers to see open mic comedians, I'd appreciate your help. Thank you." How is that "f**king someone over"?

And for all your talk of the evils of unpaid labour you're operating a business that nets you money precisely because comics donate their time and talent for free. You put unpaid comics in front of a paying crowd and pocket the profit. How exactly does that stand outside your definition of worker exploitation?

Anyway, it's been a long and spirited debate but I've stated my case and I promised myself I wouldn't contribute to the discussion beyond today. Feel free to have the last word on the matter; I'm satisfied the conversation exists as a public record now and people can read it and make up their own mind should they choose. Putting aside your still lingering insinuations, thanks for taking part.

"To say a person showing up for a first gig might expect to get a job as a paid comedian out of it is to take a very dim view on them as an intelligent human being"

I have paid people after only seeing them once and booked them for a paid spot after only seeing them once. It is rare but sometimes you can actually see talent and sometimes you just like what someone does and . The likes of Russell Kane really are funny from their very first gig. If you don't book them when you can you very quickly can't afford them. It is rare but I have booked people for paid spots on one seeing. Therefore it is not actually impossible even if people don't expect it to happen. Of course 95% of people have to do a long slog but 5% really are funny from the word go.

You know what many people progress from doing unpaid to paid gigs at the Pear and we have given many people their first paid gig so ...erm ... no we don't just "use" opens.

"Are you seriously saying that you tell every new act you have on "by the way, at the end of this gig I won't be employing you as a professional comedian. Just wanted to make that clear"? "

Yes. It's not called London's 2nd worst comedy club for nothing.
In short - yes, this is in the very title of the club.
Although of course if we're paying them they are professional ...even if they're not all full time pros.
The booking policy of the club is expicitly explained on the website and indeed sometimes on pieces of physical paper sellotaped to the door (when the punters haven't nicked them).

"And for all your talk of the evils of unpaid labour you're operating a business that nets you money precisely because comics donate their time and talent for free. You put unpaid comics in front of a paying crowd and pocket the profit."

No, it's usually an equal 6 way doorsplit with some money held back from the very successful weeks to finance the dead ones. This is not the same as putting "unpaid comics" infront of a "paying crowd". 65 minutes of the gig is paid for acts and approx 50 minutes is open spots. I think that's a fair split for a £5 entry gig.

"You'll need to bring a guest if you want to perform at my free gig. Nobody is getting paid, including me, and I'd like for there to be a decent sized audience for your show. I'll do what I can to bring in a crowd but given that the public tend not to come out in big numbers to see open mic comedians, I'd appreciate your help. Thank you." How is that "f**king someone over"?

The clue is in the word NEED. Just because you have chosen to work for nothing it doesn't mean everyone else is happy to. History shows that when promoters push their responsibilities onto open spots the result is usually resentment. But don't take my word for it - feel free to learn the lessons of history again the hard way. You can go on about how the CRAPP is my ideological bugbear and me forcing my opinions on others but it only has any power as a campaign so long as people recognise an emotional truth at the heart of it. If nobody else felt the same way as me then the idea that acts should be booked on the basis of how funny they are and promoters should do their own manual labour or pay people to do it for them would not have any power. Also I have to say that actually the public do come out for new acts or I'd have gone bust years ago - as would have Alex Petty, Hils Jago and any number of other established London promoters who have built their businesses primarily on promoting new acts.

Sorry to hi-jack this thread but, I saw Sooty had advertised his next gig. I am performing (uses the term loosely) my second open mic gig tomorrow (1st September) at Dr. Inks on a comedy bin night. Does anyone know what these nights are like??

Dunno a gigs a gig.

Make em laugh and don't let them see you cry.

Dunno a gigs a gig.

Make em laugh and don't let them see you cry.

Quote: Jason Simmons @ August 31 2011, 8:41 AM BST

Sorry to hi-jack this thread but, I saw Sooty had advertised his next gig. I am performing (uses the term loosely) my second open mic gig tomorrow (1st September) at Dr. Inks on a comedy bin night. Does anyone know what these nights are like??

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Usually microphone in public bar. Free entry.
A few are in separate rooms. All free entry.
When I did them before he changed his booking policy they were not too bad.
Lots and lots of acts all doing 5 - try to avoid being last.
Some reasonable MCs but no paid spots and no headliner.
Can probably get on if you just turn up anyway.
I believe Jay may have dropped his bring a mate policy now.
But I may be wrong ...depends on who one talks to.
From what I've heard it didn't actually work in practice anyway...
One of his employees showed me some of the emails he sends out and there was no bring a mate requirement on them but it may depend from venue to venue and MC.
And on how much of a mug he thinks you are.

Quote: David Bussell @ August 30 2011, 11:07 PM BST

Putting aside your still lingering insinuations, thanks for taking part.

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I'm not here for fun. I'm looking after my own commercial interests as a promoter and as an act. You can say "Well, you're club's not perfect either" and it isn't. No one can be. All workplaces contain injustice but that's not an argument for industrialising injustices.

Your argument that because a club may not pay any of the performers it is not commercial is nonsense. To be a comedy club you have to find a room and the reason so many clubs are in pub rooms is most pubs let clubs run there free.

When I say free what I mean is not entirely free .... but free in the sense that it's understood that we're here to sell beer. At Pear Shaped we get the use of the room for free. And we redistribute the ticket sale money to pay acts. The pub gets increased beer sales and free advertising, we get a room rent free in terms of cash.

Free entry bringers can't create revenue from ticket sales because the acts would know they are being ripped off. Therefore they have to maximise their turnover by maximising beer sales for the venue. As no one will come willingly they have to lean on the acts to bring mates.

The acts do unpaid promoting work and the bar manager now has a magically full room of drinkers by subcontracting the workplace bullying. The bringer can't begin to sell tickets ever as this will make the con too obvious to the new acts. But just because the revenue stream can't be seen on first inspection doesn't mean it isn't there. Someone is making a profit - the bar manager. If the act/promoters didn't try to cut themselves into this they'd have to be dim beyond comprehension.

Extending your logic let us imagine whole chains of these "non commerical" bringers. And at the moment one individual runs at least 7 free entry gigs on which they have tried to collectively impose a bringer policy simultaneously.

When this individual has maximised the beer sales of their respective venues to optimum level by bullying new acts and this is seen as socially and morally acceptable... what happens to clubs like Pear Shaped which still maintain no-strings-spots? In terms of beer sales my venue owner has an erratic revenue stream so why would he continue to let us use the room for free when all his competitiors are maximising their beer sales by filling rooms with bullied new acts? As bringers have no "dead weeks" ... clearly my negotiating position with the venue is weakened. Eventually you'll have to give bigger and bigger guarentees on the volume of people you can pack in or face being thrown out the room. At this point I would have to start bullying new acts too or pay the venue room hire costs which would come out of the acts fees and ticket sales. Either that or I'd have to make it a completely professional gig or reduce the number of opens so there would be no social mobility and no way for new acts to come through. The club circuit would then be socially static without any new acts being unable to get their foot on the first rung of the ladder at pro or semi-pro gigs.

At this point the professional clubs would say "well, if Miller and Damage are running a bringer why can't we? We used to have a revenue stream from acts bringing mates by choice and now they don't any more they take all their friends down the road to the free entry 'uncommercial' bringer who REQUIRE it with Strict Instructions". There is no answer to that because a precedent that it is okay derive a revenue stream from manual open spot labour has now been established - so at that point it would be standard industry practice at ticketed gigs too. The message any act running a free entry bringer is sending to the pub industry is "We're just amateurs not professionals" which is just how you describe them and the lynchpin of all your arguments. Because if they become professionals it would be obvious exploitation. This is why all venues who run pay to play type gigs or free entry bringers have names like Comedy Virgins or Touching Cloth or Car Crash. The have to convince their acts that they are not professionals. Well, you have to start seeing yourself as professional at some point and if you don't no one else ever will.

I'm not even sure why these sorts of night survive more than a couple of gigs. Do people just do them as a one off or do some acts regularly gig at these sort of nights? Every now and again I might fancy gigging in front of a room of just comedians and friends, but that's only when I want to workshop something in a safe environment. There's only one gig like that that I know of around here, but that's not 'bringer', it's just a venue that acts like going to be in the audience of. All of the other new acts and open mic nights here live and die by whether they're able to bring in their own punters.

Plus it's f**king hard to get two people to come to a gig with you! Often I go alone. My friends are sick to death of my material (me).

I don't agree with bringers, pay to play, same as I don't agree with 'forced flyering' gigs and anything that requires you to promote it yourself. I just don't think you should have to 'qualify' for an open spot by doing something for the promoter.