http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/19/jail-herpes-sexually-transmitted-infection
Interesting. If you're interested, obviously.
I read the news today oh boy! Page 514
Quote: Westcountryman @ August 21 2011, 8:09 AM BSTInstead of the colossal waste of time and money of the moonlanding they have the gall to suggest all that was wasted was the price of a TV set with a paint on moonscape.
I don't think it was a waste of money. From what I've heard people since say, at the time, everyone had the day off school and work and viewed the landings and felt a collective amazement that we in modern times have never felt .
It's one of the most significant ventures in human history really, money doesn't mean shit. And when you consider the cost, against the amount of people who have/will view the footage for the remainder of time, it's value for money.
Why is it significant? I don't think it is significant, Shakespeare was significant, Dante was significant, Bach was significant(I might of added say Jesus or Buddha or Plato but that would no doubt open up a whole different argument.). Or if you want to be more mundane, a good beer, a country pub and a good book by crackling fireside are significant.(yes I'm unbelievably old-fashioned.). No it was very much a waste of time, in my book. Indeed it was probably worse than that, it was the expenditure of resources on the most materialistic and scientistic goal, as far as I'm concerned, which actually furthers this sort of thinking.
And I think that sort of amazement is not necessarily a good thing. It was John Michell, an amazing man who wrote for the Oldie, that commented that we moderns are so degenerate that even our fantasies are full of the sterility and vulgarity of UFOs and Sci-Fi. Instead of seeing the fairies we are kidnapped by flying saucers.
Scientistic?
That is a fun word.
Quote: zooo @ August 22 2011, 12:47 AM BSTScientistic?
That is a fun word.
All my words are fun, aren't they? 
Oops. Yes, of course!
Quote: Westcountryman @ August 22 2011, 12:22 AM BSTWhy is it significant? I don't think it is significant, Shakespeare was significant, Dante was significant, Bach was significant(I might of added say Jesus or Buddha or Plato but that would no doubt open up a whole different argument.). Or if you want to be more mundane, a good beer, a country pub and a good book by crackling fireside are significant.(yes I'm unbelievably old-fashioned.). No it was very much a waste of time, in my book. Indeed it was probably worse than that, it was the expenditure of resources on the most materialistic and scientistic goal, as far as I'm concerned, which actually furthers this sort of thinking.
And I think that sort of amazement is not necessarily a good thing. It was John Michell, an amazing man who wrote for the Oldie, that commented that we moderns are so degenerate that even our fantasies are full of the sterility and vulgarity of UFOs and Sci-Fi. Instead of seeing the fairies we are kidnapped by flying saucers.
Citing cause for Shakespeare and Bach and Drinking beer, holding a higher significance than the Astronauts' mission... I don't get the context you're measuring these things in. If we're including EVERYTHING, that has EVER happened in human and pre-human history, then gee, I can't stretch my arms wide enough.
The Paleotechnic Era was significant, World War 2 was significant, so was Malcom X. Columbus. The Roman Empire. Designing the wheel. Harnessing fire. This is all a rather silly excuse to simply start listing things.
It's good that you've read some books and listened to some music, but rather than throwing aimless source material about, I'll tell you why I personally feel the moon landings were a significant success and achievement. Humans walking on another world is a milestone, the answer to a question first put forward when the Gallelians began to notice space and wonder.
You honestly don't see the monumental accomplishment in selecting/ training/ preparing two human beings - Then designing/ developing/ constructing the technology by which their lives depended - Exiting the Earth's atmosphere and flying them to the moon? The same moon which has been worshipped, gazed upon, debated and looked upon in amazement by almost every human being who has ever lived since the earth developed conditions for human genesis and evolution?
You think that's honestly 'no biggie?'. Men driving a Lunar car on the surface of the moon, The Moon ffs?? You really think S.Bach composing music is of equal value, ingenuity, and effort?
C'mon, be real. That's a completely unrelated argument and is no response when claiming the NASA mission was a waste of money, that reference makes absolutely no sense.
I couldn't care less about Kennedy's politics or his inferiority complex toward the Russian advancements in technology, but as a sheer breathtaking spectacle, and true measurement of how far Humanity had rose from sculpting stone axes in the timeline. It takes an amount of ignorance (or plain ol' disintrest in how far people have come along) to dismiss this as nothing but a waste of time, effort and money.
And, as for the dollars 'wasted', many things we now take for granted are said to've entered development during the research stage for the landings: Insulation, chemical and gas detection, metalwork, purifying water, leaps in engneering and computer technology, even tests on clothing and footwear materials that have contributed to the bank of human knowledge. It was really that significant.
Look up at sky tonight, look at the moon, a good look and think about it, how people with the resources put their mind to it, then did it. This was the kickstart for the fact years and years and years from now humans will travel to other planets, explore deeper space and things we can't even imagine in 2011 .... Then, go and look at a copy of Hamlet, or a pub with a fireplace, and re-evalute that comparison.
http://www.lbc.co.uk/watch-london-libyans-celebrate-on-edgware-rd-43834
Libyans in London on Edgware Road celebrating rebel control of Libya.
Joyful scenes regardless of the debate on intervention 
Quote: Jack Daniels @ August 22 2011, 3:56 AM BSTCiting cause for Shakespeare and Bach and Drinking beer, holding a higher significance than the Astronauts' mission... I don't get the context you're measuring these things in. If we're including EVERYTHING, that has EVER happened in human and pre-human history, then gee, I can't stretch my arms wide enough.
The Paleotechnic Era was significant, World War 2 was significant, so was Malcom X. Columbus. The Roman Empire. Designing the wheel. Harnessing fire. This is all a rather silly excuse to simply start listing things.
It's good that you've read some books and listened to some music, but rather than throwing aimless source material about, I'll tell you why I personally feel the moon landings were a significant success and achievement. Humans walking on another world is a milestone, the answer to a question first put forward when the Gallelians began to notice space and wonder.
You honestly don't see the monumental accomplishment in selecting/ training/ preparing two human beings - Then designing/ developing/ constructing the technology by which their lives depended - Exiting the Earth's atmosphere and flying them to the moon? The same moon which has been worshipped, gazed upon, debated and looked upon in amazement by almost every human being who has ever lived since the earth developed conditions for human genesis and evolution?
You think that's honestly 'no biggie?'. Men driving a Lunar car on the surface of the moon, The Moon ffs?? You really think S.Bach composing music is of equal value, ingenuity, and effort?
C'mon, be real. That's a completely unrelated argument and is no response when claiming the NASA mission was a waste of money, that reference makes absolutely no sense.
I couldn't care less about Kennedy's politics or his inferiority complex toward the Russian advancements in technology, but as a sheer breathtaking spectacle, and true measurement of how far Humanity had rose from sculpting stone axes in the timeline. It takes an amount of ignorance (or plain ol' disintrest in how far people have come along) to dismiss this as nothing but a waste of time, effort and money.
And, as for the dollars 'wasted', many things we now take for granted are said to've entered development during the research stage for the landings: Insulation, chemical and gas detection, metalwork, purifying water, leaps in engneering and computer technology, even tests on clothing and footwear materials that have contributed to the bank of human knowledge. It was really that significant.
Look up at sky tonight, look at the moon, a good look and think about it, how people with the resources put their mind to it, then did it. This was the kickstart for the fact years and years and years from now humans will travel to other planets, explore deeper space and things we can't even imagine in 2011 .... Then, go and look at a copy of Hamlet, or a pub with a fireplace, and re-evalute that comparison.
Again, huzzah !
Quote: Jack Daniels @ August 22 2011, 3:56 AM BSTCiting cause for Shakespeare and Bach and Drinking beer, holding a higher significance than the Astronauts' mission... I don't get the context you're measuring these things in. If we're including EVERYTHING, that has EVER happened in human and pre-human history, then gee, I can't stretch my arms wide enough.
The Paleotechnic Era was significant, World War 2 was significant, so was Malcom X. Columbus. The Roman Empire. Designing the wheel. Harnessing fire. This is all a rather silly excuse to simply start listing things.
It's good that you've read some books and listened to some music, but rather than throwing aimless source material about, I'll tell you why I personally feel the moon landings were a significant success and achievement. Humans walking on another world is a milestone, the answer to a question first put forward when the Gallelians began to notice space and wonder.
You honestly don't see the monumental accomplishment in selecting/ training/ preparing two human beings - Then designing/ developing/ constructing the technology by which their lives depended - Exiting the Earth's atmosphere and flying them to the moon? The same moon which has been worshipped, gazed upon, debated and looked upon in amazement by almost every human being who has ever lived since the earth developed conditions for human genesis and evolution?
You think that's honestly 'no biggie?'. Men driving a Lunar car on the surface of the moon, The Moon ffs?? You really think S.Bach composing music is of equal value, ingenuity, and effort?
C'mon, be real. That's a completely unrelated argument and is no response when claiming the NASA mission was a waste of money, that reference makes absolutely no sense.
I couldn't care less about Kennedy's politics or his inferiority complex toward the Russian advancements in technology, but as a sheer breathtaking spectacle, and true measurement of how far Humanity had rose from sculpting stone axes in the timeline. It takes an amount of ignorance (or plain ol' disintrest in how far people have come along) to dismiss this as nothing but a waste of time, effort and money.
And, as for the dollars 'wasted', many things we now take for granted are said to've entered development during the research stage for the landings: Insulation, chemical and gas detection, metalwork, purifying water, leaps in engneering and computer technology, even tests on clothing and footwear materials that have contributed to the bank of human knowledge. It was really that significant.
Look up at sky tonight, look at the moon, a good look and think about it, how people with the resources put their mind to it, then did it. This was the kickstart for the fact years and years and years from now humans will travel to other planets, explore deeper space and things we can't even imagine in 2011 .... Then, go and look at a copy of Hamlet, or a pub with a fireplace, and re-evalute that comparison.
Ah, here we come again to philosophy and spirituality and we should probably avoid, at the risk of boring others to tears, going too far into these topics.
It was Martin Lings, pupil of C.S Lewis and Rene Guenon and philosopher in his own right and eventually a Sufi master, who wrote that 'could it not be said that to be present at an adequate presentation of King Lear is not merely to watch a play but to witness, mysteriously, the whole history of mankind.'.
Leaving aside Dante and Bach and all the rest and leaving but Shakespeare I would say that Hamlet is not only worth more than all the space missions we have so far had, but all the material 'progress' we have had since it was written. Hamlet is a masterpiece, though in his late comedies like the Winter's Tales and the Tempest Shakespeare surpasses even it'; that is it is a view, from a particular perspective, into the deepest realities of human soul and the universe itself. It is about the revenge against the devil and the reverse of the fall; its theme best revealed by this line;'for virtue cannot so
inoculate our old stock but we shall relish of it.'.
But ignoring such sublime renderings, there is more to human life and the universe than the mere material and quantified side of it, which is at the heart of space exploration. To me the social, the cultural and the spiritual are a revelation into the universe itself, properly contemplated. Activities like a good beer in a country pub, perhaps with good friends or one's spouse or children, are, to me, far more full of the better things in life than the mere programming of machines. Even from a humanistic point of view surely the best things in life are those loving, friendly and cultural interactions with our fellow human beings and not the piloting of electro-magnetic gadgets to what are, even to the imaginations of the explorers, sterile lumps of cold rock?
Once man had a very different view of the universe, and the world, than we have now. The stars were gods and they orbited him in a living cosmos. With Copernicus and Galileo we left behind the last vestiges of this view and began our journey towards a view on which only the quantitative, mechanistic and material matters. This is where you get your view that space shuttles are more important than stone axes or even Shakespeare, I'm not so sure. But I'll give you one thing, you're right that the money was not a particularly important objection. It was a waste of money, but so is much that modern governments and societies do, what it represents is far worse.
Quote: Westcountryman @ August 22 2011, 3:02 PM BSTActivities like a good beer in a country pub, perhaps with good friends or one's spouse or children, are, to me, far more full of the better things in life than the mere programming of machines.
I think you'll find that programmed machines make that beer and pub visit possible.
Is there a conspiracy to make us choose between pubs/books and space exploration? The sick bastards. Catskills, we need you!
Quote: DaButt @ August 22 2011, 3:15 PM BSTI think you'll find that programmed machines make that beer and pub visit possible.
And we've already established that beer is horrible tasting muck.
Quote: DaButt @ August 22 2011, 3:15 PM BSTI think you'll find that programmed machines make that beer and pub visit possible.
Actually you can still buy beers made by the pubs in England, which are brewed with pretty simple technology and which taste better than any mass produced continental lager I have ever tasted. But that wasn't exactly my point, my whole point was about the valuing of the programming and the machines as an end and not a means. I'm not sure even the makers of the pigs swill known as Budweiser quite manage to value the programming and machines in themselves as the end of the endeavour(unless it is the programming in the BMWs and Plasma Screens of the executives.).
You're basically saying the individual bricks of one's house are more important than the functions and beauty of the house. It would be foolish to ignore the utility of bricks and only to see the abstract function and beauty of houses, but it would be even more foolish to see only the utility of bricks and ignore the function and beauty of houses.
Quote: AJGO @ August 22 2011, 3:22 PM BSTIs there a conspiracy to make us choose between pubs/books and space exploration? The sick bastards. Catskills, we need you!
Of course not. Men, in their pubs and in their books have always explored space. 'First God made heaven & earth, The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep;' as one man once noted over his beer 'and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.', as his drinking partner continued. The problem is the conspiracy against drinking and exploring space.
Could you ever imagine a Space Shuttle pilot having a few decent brews before take off?
Quote: Westcountryman @ August 22 2011, 3:43 PM BSTmy whole point was about the valuing of the programming and the machines as an end and not a means.
If we don't work out how to live offworld by the time this Earth ends (which is inevitable), we'll lose all the beer and all knowledge of Shakespeare. That's what makes space exploration so overwhelmingly significant.