I find this quite ofthen. It is especially true with physical gags I would imagine. The pink panther films for example would probably be flat on the page but seeing Peter Sellars fall over just cracks me up.
Scripts versus performance Page 2
Agree with Phill and BushBaby re: performance by others definitely surprises the writer. It is a scary, uplifting, and yet confounding experience.
As too Quentin having the luxury of a cast performing the work before a producer, agreed BushBaby. But now anyone can produce a DVD of their script to send out (with miniDV cams nice and cheap).
Self-producing is good practice too as it forces the writer to write economically: cheap sets, tight dialogue, few props. Economic writing will always be in ever-increasing demand.
As to scripts v performance - the true test of how good a script is is when you can hear the actors' voices BEFORE you see the show, not AFTER.
Yes, when I started writing with TV in mind I went looking for "production scripts", that's what I called them, but "shooting scripts" is probably the proper term. I wanted to see what the scripts looked like before they were performed and then compare them to the finished shot episode. I wanted to see which lines were improvised or changed during shooting. I wanted to see which lines or scenes had been cut for timing. Well, all I could ever find were scripts "after the fact"---and that's sort of like reading a novelization of a movie. It is not satisfying from a student's perspective.
Quote: bushbaby @ January 6, 2008, 12:22 PMNo it definitely wouldn't Seefacts and that's what we are saying with scripts 'on the page' Even if 'you' think it is hilarious, 'you' have to convince an editor that it is. That's why I said to you in another thread that it is virtually impossible for a new writer to break through into TV with a sitcom. But getting back to Caroline, it took some convincing to get the producers to watch the cast act an episode out for them. 'We' don't have that luxury.
But the debate here is not so much Royle Family (I gave that as an example) as, a script can be so boring on page but hilarious off.
But if you write something which is funny on the page it'll get noticed. I firmly believe if you're funny enough, you'll get noticed.
Would the Royle Family script have been boring on the page? Some of it, but it's still got some lovely lines it.
If someone critques your work saying 'Not enough jokes' and you counter by saying 'Well, if it got made it'd be hilarious' or whatever then that's fine. But how do you know that? How do you know if your script got acted out it would suddenly work. You don't. You're just kidding yourself there. If YOU know it doesn't jump of the page, put it to one side and write something which does.
Quote: SlagA @ January 6, 2008, 12:47 PMAs to scripts v performance - the true test of how good a script is is when you can hear the actors' voices BEFORE you see the show, not AFTER.
So spot on it's like a gust of wind showering you with nails.
I'm developing a script for someone which they liked because ONE of the 6 characters was good. He had his own voice and it got the script noticed.
I think funny gets people's attention, but it's when a character or characters jump out and sound and feel real that producers will really take interest.
Quote: Seefacts @ January 6, 2008, 12:49 PMBut if you write something which is funny on the page it'll get noticed. I firmly believe if you're funny enough, you'll get noticed.
Would the Royle Family script have been boring on the page? Some of it, but it's still got some lovely lines it.
If someone critques your work saying 'Not enough jokes' and you counter by saying 'Well, if it got made it'd be hilarious' or whatever then that's fine. But how do you know that? How do you know if your script got acted out it would suddenly work. You don't. You're just kidding yourself there. If YOU know it doesn't jump of the page, put it to one side and write something which does.
I agree with what you're saying Seefacts, and you're right there are some laugh out loud lines in the royle family. And It is very economical, 1/2 sets and same characters. It reminds me of steptoe in a way. Undoubtedly though the performance adds to it.
Quote: Seefacts @ January 6, 2008, 12:54 PMBut if you write something which is funny on the page it'll get noticed. I firmly believe if you're funny enough, you'll get noticed.
Would the Royle Family script have been boring on the page? Some of it, but it's still got some lovely lines it.
If someone critques your work saying 'Not enough jokes' and you counter by saying 'Well, if it got made it'd be hilarious' or whatever then that's fine. But how do you know that? How do you know if your script got acted out it would suddenly work. You don't. You're just kidding yourself there. If YOU know it doesn't jump of the page, put it to one side and write something which does.
In British sitcoms they are what the characters say rather than a stream of jokes/quips as in the American ones.
The Royle Family doesn't have jokes as such. Even the silence in that sitcom is funny.
Did anyone enter the Last Laugh sitcom comp with Beeb 3? There were eight sitcoms to choose from and the comp was to write ten pages to complete the sitcom of your choice....i.e. known writers had written the first 20 minutes. Not one of them was hilarious or contained jokes, they were character based.
Quote: bushbaby @ January 6, 2008, 1:49 PMIn British sitcoms they are what the characters say rather than a stream of jokes/quips as in the American ones.
The Royle Family doesn't have jokes as such. Even the silence in that sitcom is funny.
Did anyone enter the Last Laugh sitcom comp with Beeb 3? There were eight sitcoms to choose from and the comp was to write ten pages to complete the sitcom of your choice....i.e. known writers had written the first 20 minutes. Not one of them was hilarious or contained jokes, they were character based.
Yeah, but these people have to luxury of being in the industry. They know they can get meetings with producers quite easily. They know that the producer isn't going to dismiss it after 10 pages.
We can't and we don't. Therefore it's jokes first, character second I'm afraid.
The only sitcom I can think of by a new writer is Two Pints of lager, and that was commissioned from a competition entry.
In the guide book regarding the Last Laugh (LL) competition it said that it wasn't just about jokes but there had to be laughs on each page.
A sitcom full of quips is not what they look for. Unless of course all the rules only apply to a rejected script.
Quote: bushbaby @ January 6, 2008, 2:01 PMThe only sitcom I can think of by a new writer is Two Pints of lager, and that was commissioned from a competition entry.
In the guide book regarding the Last Laugh (LL) competition it said that it wasn't just about jokes but there had to be laughs on each page.
A sitcom full of quips is not what they look for. Unless of course all the rules only apply to a rejected script.
I'm not saying just jokes, there's got to be a balance. But if the balance is too much in favour of character it won't get spotted. I think you need a few gag-gag-gag bits to show you can do funny.
The reason not many sitcoms get commissioned from new writers is because a lot of stuff they get sent it total shit.
You need three jokes per page.
Quote: Seefacts @ January 6, 2008, 2:06 PMI'm not saying just jokes, there's got to be a balance. But if the balance is too much in favour of character it won't get spotted.
The reason not many sitcoms get commissioned from new writers is because a lot of stuff they get sent it total shit.
You need three jokes per page.
Not necessarily jokes. You need three laughs, but in the LL comp they stipulated six!!!
Perhaps I'm not explaining myself enough. I'll give you an example of what I mean.
The next few lines are from a sitcom I've written and the two characters are pensioners taking a break from their golf game, they're eating sandwiches.
TOM
Did you know food's a substitute for sex?
JACK
Really? That explains the four stone I've put on since 1991.
.........
It may not make you laugh Seefacts but in context with the rest of what goes on, it's funny, but it's not a joke/quip. Jack is talking seriously. That's what I mean when I say, it can't be made up of jokes.
Another good example of non-jokes are the two cops in Last Of The Summer Wine, they are hilarious and not one joke passes their lips.
I read somewhere that the reason people ask for ten pages is because certain bits of information - from a storytelling point of view - need to be in there. Presumeably these are the situation, the characters and the hook/trigger that sets the story off. And jokes of course.
I read the stage play of 'The Odd Couple' before I saw the film and was actually a little disappointed with the film as the script was so good. I realised then that the film was actually very good too, just not quite how I'd imagined it. More the other card players than the actual leads who were both amazing.
Quote: bushbaby @ January 6, 2008, 2:16 PMNot necessarily jokes. You need three laughs, but in the LL comp they stipulated six!!!
Perhaps I'm not explaining myself enough. I'll give you an example of what I mean.
The next few lines are from a sitcom I've written and the two characters are pensioners taking a break from their golf game, they're eating sandwiches.TOM
Did you know food's a substitute for sex?JACK
Really? That explains the four stone I've put on since 1991..........
It may not make you laugh Seefacts but in context with the rest of what goes on, it's funny, but it's not a joke/quip. Jack is talking seriously. That's what I mean when I say, it can't be made up of jokes.
Another good example of non-jokes are the two cops in Last Of The Summer Wine, they are hilarious and not one joke passes their lips.
But how is not making me laugh any different to not making a producer or script editor laugh?
Too me that SOUNDS like a joke, but isn't really.
Quote: jacparov @ January 6, 2008, 2:17 PMI read somewhere that the reason people ask for ten pages is because certain bits of information - from a storytelling point of view - need to be in there. Presumeably these are the situation, the characters and the hook/trigger that sets the story off. And jokes of course.
Yeah, if they're not gripped enough by what's in the first ten pages, they won't read on.
I firmly believe if there's not enough laughs in the first ten, they'll stop reading. Even if the characters have potential. They'll think 'They can't do funny' and put it in the bin.
Seefacts
Because you have to be lucky enough to hit on an editor that gets your humour on the page and that's why it is soooooooooo difficult to get work accepted and why Caroline's a lucky bitch.
the two pensioners continue with their game of golf.
JACK SWINGS AT THE BALL A COUPLE OF TIMES BUT MISSES
JACK
Are my eyes still at the front?
TOM
Yeah, it'll be that piece of shit on the end of your club.
JACK TIPS UP HIS CLUB AND INSPECTS THE CLUB HEAD.
JACK
What piece of shit?
TOM
The other end you wazzock.
Quote: bushbaby @ January 6, 2008, 2:32 PMSeefacts
Because you have to be lucky enough to hit on an editor that gets your humour on the page and that's why it is soooooooooo difficult to get work accepted and why Caroline's a lucky bitch.the two pensioners continue with their game of golf.
JACK SWINGS AT THE BALL A COUPLE OF TIMES BUT MISSES
JACK
Are my eyes still at the front?TOM
Yeah, it'll be that piece of shit on the end of your club.JACK TIPS UP HIS CLUB AND INSPECTS THE CLUB HEAD.
JACK
What piece of shit?TOM
The other end you wazzock.
Are you trying to prove something to me?
For me, that doesn't work anyway.