On a side note, how did you end up writing for CBeebies little Sophie? Writing kids stuff could be cool, though off the top of my head the only kids programme I'd want to write for is Ren and Stimpy, apart from class stuff like Rainbow and Thomas the Tank Engine perhaps. And Ren and Stimpy isn't going any moe of course.
Quote: Sophie Petzal @ May 1 2011, 12:13 AM BSTBut times change viewing-wise and that stuff really just dies on its arse these days. You can say it's a bad thing, it's all taste at the end of it all. But I don't know...I really like the turn our latest stuff has taken.
There is nothing wrong with slick clever fantasy, but a lot of this stuff isn't that slick or clever; and drama that engages the mind and the emotions does not need to be dull and worthy.
Quote: Sophie Petzal @ May 1 2011, 12:13 AM BSTThanks for the link, though I think I've read that thread before. I got the feeling then, and still do now, that some of that may be slightly...nostalgic. It still clings to what I said before about a lot of Jimmy McGovern-esque solid kitchen sink drama about very upset people living difficult lives. I'm not slighting it! I love to try and watch everything and some of those listed are some of my favourite shows. But times change viewing-wise and that stuff really just dies on its arse these days. You can say it's a bad thing, it's all taste at the end of it all. But I don't know...I really like the turn our latest stuff has taken.
I've been on the planet for nearly 38 years and genuinely believe that British drama is at its lowest ebb in terms of the stuff being produced - originality, storytelling and quality of scriptwriting having been lost (with a few very rare exceptions) to generic, formulaic shows (and endless re-hashes of old stories) which don't even attempt to do anything new.
At the same time, some of the most exciting shows and strongest writing I've ever seen in my lifetime has come out of the US in recent years. Even generic US shows are streets ahead of ours in terms of the quality of writing and storytelling.
So I don't think it is just nostalgic and rose-tinted specs that leads people to criticise what's on offer on our screens. (Especially when British drama relies so heavily on nostalgia in terms of re-makes of old shows and endless costume dramas.)
Quote: chipolata @ May 1 2011, 12:16 AM BSTI wouldn't characterise McGovern as kitchen sink. Cracker is fast paced, audacious funny and exciting.
Yes haha I know I'm generalising (he's a class writer) so I'm not going to debate specifics really because you're right on that one! Hopefully you know what I mean though. We seem to be known for generally very low-key, depressing drama.
Quote: Vader @ May 1 2011, 12:16 AM BSTOn a side note, how did you end up writing for CBeebies little Sophie? Writing kids stuff could be cool, though off the top of my head the only kids programme I'd want to write for is Ren and Stimpy, apart from class stuff like Rainbow and Thomas the Tank Engine perhaps. And Ren and Stimpy isn't going any moe of course.
For all you know I could be 46 and 28 stone. Hahhaah! I jest, I'm 45.
Anyway, I harassed a company until they eventually asked for some work. Then they got it. Then they sent me a...well...I can't describe it any better than a writing 'exercise', which they liked...then I was asked to meet them. Then it went from there.
Quote: Tim Walker @ May 1 2011, 12:19 AM BSTAt the same time, some of the most exciting shows and strongest writing I've ever seen in my lifetime has come out of the US in recent years. Even generic US shows are streets ahead of ours in terms of the quality of writing and storytelling.
Shows such as Wallander, The Killing and Spiral also add some perspective to the decline of British TV drama.
Quote: Griff @ May 1 2011, 12:22 AM BSTI think what Sophie means is "Old programmes are rubbish! New programmes are brilliant!" and who is anyone to argue. Because after all things like Jimmy McGovern just "die on their arse" these days, for example The Street which died on its arse so badly it won just about every TV award going.
The Street is one of my favourite things - EVER. So don't, oh please don't, pull that one.
I am very very innocently pointing out that society grows and shifts as do tastes and genres. What 'once' worked might not anymore. To those of you/us/significant other whom that upsets it's a crying crying shame. I personally like the way things are going. Tomorrow, when something comes on telly that I don't like, I'll be getting hacked off too. But someone near me might love it. It's so completely relative.
Don't be unpleasant.
Quote: Timbo @ May 1 2011, 12:26 AM BSTShows such as Wallander, The Killing and Spiral also add some perspective to the decline of British TV drama.
Have you seen the American 'Killing'? It's meant to be great. I haven't seen even the Danish one yet but I absolutely love Wallander. So I wouldn't be surprised if it follows in that vein.
I'm half way through watching the first series boxset of the original version of 'The Killing', and it is indeed great. Though perhaps to slow for some, as they methodically sift through all the details and suspects for a single murder.
Quote: Sophie Petzal @ May 1 2011, 12:23 AM BSTFor all you know I could be 46 and 28 stone. Hahhaah! I jest, I'm 45.
Anyway, I harassed a company until they eventually asked for some work. Then they got it. Then they sent me a...well...I can't describe it any better than a writing 'exercise', which they liked...then I was asked to meet them. Then it went from there.
45 stone?
I can see how harassing them might have worked for you! Well done. Do you ever get people shouting 'run for the hills, Sophie is coming'? 
Quote: Tim Walker @ May 1 2011, 12:19 AM BSTI've been on the planet for nearly 38 years and genuinely believe that British drama is at its lowest ebb in terms of the stuff being produced - originality, storytelling and quality of scriptwriting having been lost (with a few very rare exceptions) to generic, formulaic shows (and endless re-hashes of old stories) which don't even attempt to do anything new.
At the same time, some of the most exciting shows and strongest writing I've ever seen in my lifetime has come out of the US in recent years. Even generic US shows are streets ahead of ours in terms of the quality of writing and storytelling.
So I don't think it is just nostalgic and rose-tinted specs that leads people to criticise what's on offer on our screens. (Especially when British drama relies so heavily on nostalgia in terms of re-makes of old shows and endless costume dramas.)
US walks all over us at the moment and I'm loathe to say it as I always want to jump to our defence.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that we are seeing a 'decline'. There is a serious shift, and we are going up and down like no one's business. But in the past few years, I've seen (coming from UK productions) some of the best AND some of the worst stuff ever. It's hard to make anything cohesive of it.
Quote: Vader @ May 1 2011, 12:29 AM BST45 stone?
I can see how harassing them might have worked for you! Well done. Do you ever get people shouting 'run for the hills, Sophie is coming'?
Haha...I see hyperbole doesn't go down well here at all 
. It wasn't harassment as much as 'Hello, I like cartoons. Can I work for you please?'
It was all very affable, just very slow, and very arduous, and very much like any business agreement. I only meant it insofar as 'I stuck at it'.
The only people who shout that are people who I've bested in fist-fights...and I haven't battered anyone ever...for at least like...a month.
There's apparently some great brit dramas coming this week; including that new Chris Eccleston show, and the John Simm thriller.
The Shadow Line and Exile, that's them!
Quote: Matthew Stott @ May 1 2011, 12:33 AM BSTThere's apparently some great brit dramas coming this week; including that new Chris Eccleston show, and the John Simm thriller.
Exile? Can't wait for that. John Simm being "intense". I'm a sucker.
Quote: Sophie Petzal @ May 1 2011, 12:34 AM BSTExile? Can't wait for that. John Simm being "intense". I'm a sucker.
The early ads made it look like a son dealing with a Dad who was going senile; but it's apparently a thriller, with his Dad at the centre of some conspiracy or other, who can't remember all the details because he's going senile. Which sounds more interesting.
Quote: Sophie Petzal @ May 1 2011, 12:30 AM BSTI wouldn't go as far as to say that we are seeing a 'decline'.
We're (British TV drama) not in decline - that ship sailed a long time ago. It's not shifting tastes, people simply get conditioned as to what to expect from their TV after a number of years. You give'em offal, they'll eventually learn to like offal.
I'm aware this sounds elitist and snobbish, but I'm not particularly ashamed for wanting the highest quality from TV - for one thing I'd like to be able to enjoy more shows. I am ashamed when I see US TV doing Mad Men, or even Chicago Code, whilst we're constantly shovelling flimsy, generic crap such as New Tricks and Holby City out of our televisual sausage factory.
Quote: Matthew Stott @ May 1 2011, 12:36 AM BSTThe early ads made it look like a son dealing with a Dad who was going senile; but it's apparently a thriller, with his Dad at the centre of some conspiracy or other, who can't remember all the details because he's going senile. Which sounds more interesting.
Yes I know! Looks brilliant! Like you said, when I first saw the trailer I just facepalmed thinking 'this looks like your bog-standard brit-drama'. But the premise is fascinating, the Alzheimers acting as almost the blockade for something really sinister. I can't wait. Steller cast too.
Quote: Tim Walker @ May 1 2011, 12:36 AM BSTWe're (British TV drama) not in decline - that ship sailed a long time ago. It's not shifting tastes, people simply get conditioned as to what to expect from their TV after a number of years. You give'em offal, they'll eventually learn to like offal.
I'm aware this sounds elitist and snobbish, but I'm not particularly ashamed for wanting the highest quality from TV - for one thing I'd like to be able to enjoy more shows. I am ashamed when I see US TV doing Mad Men, or even Chicago Code, whilst we're constantly shovelling flimsy shows such as New Tricks and Holby City out of our televisual sausage factory.
But you're ignoring the drama we were actually talking about, such as Being Human and Sherlock etc, which are worlds away from the likes of Holby and Casualty etc. (Not talking quality here as much as tone).
Let's not forget, America has 'soaps' too. Have you seen those? We pi** all over them!
I tend to look at drama such as Being Human which carves itself out a new place in what is arguably quite a popular niche, but still manages to be interesting and successful. But it is really difficult to argue points for and against things like this, as what constitutes 'offal' is incredibly relative. That's not me shying away from a conclusion, but I just don't like to think that a 'taste' is right or wrong.
I think America has had about 20 years ahead of us in terms of high-quality, serial drama. They had that with HBO. We don't really have an equivalent (do we?!...tell me if we do!) so we have loads of writers (and it nearly always is writers) desperately pushing against the barrier to expand and develop. So what we might be putting out there might not yet be to an American standard, but I think we can be proud of a lot of it. Surely.