Naughty, naughty BBC.
I'll never forgive them for knocking back my script for Two pints of Fosters and a packet of Kangaroo toenails ten years ago
The Sitcom Mission 2011 Page 52
Quote: simon wright @ March 13 2011, 9:53 AM GMTI may be ancient, but I don't live in the period when uninterested meant 'impartial'. I'm reading scripts in 2011 when misusing the word jolts you out of the world that the writer is trying to create.
The word 'nice' has undergone several changes. Using it now usually means that you can't be bothered to think of a more precise one.
You do live in a time where both disinterested and impartial share meanings. I'm not claiming an ancient meaning retains validity. I'm going by the modern dictionary definition. The current Chambers and Oxford dictionaries gives uninterested as a valid definition of disinterested. Uninterested may not be used all that often to mean impartial, but it's still considered a valid meaning of the word according to the dictionary. Disinterested is used all the time to mean indifferent, and it's legit according to the dictionary. There's no modern dictionary that doesn't consider 'indifferent' a valid meaning of 'disinterested'. It's certainly not a 'misuse'.
In any case, surely your argument is self-defeating? As you say, language changes all the time, and meanings change. If people are regularly using a word to mean something other than it's traditional definition, that doesn't make them wrong - it means that the word has gained another meaning. You're simply picking a different arbitrary cut off point to them. The English language is a living, breathing thing. It's like we've been content to let it grow and expand and mutate for centuries, but now we've all decided it's not allowed to change any more.
We don't control the language. Yes, I may hate the way people use 'ironic' in the wrong way or the very concept of the word 'quidrilogy', but like it or not they have entered the lexicon and are now both legitimate.
As a final point... does this matter at all in dialogue? Confusing their, they're, there, etc. yes, I can see the difficulty there... but since when has dialogue needed to be grammatically exact? Surely it's better to reflect the language as people actually speak it? Yes, 'nice' may be imprecise, but it's a word people use.
In Simon's defence, when you've read 1100 scripts, the majority of which are littered with spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, it makes one's brain weep.
I have no problems with language evolving and am grateful that I'm a native English-speaker who has the beauty of the English language at my disposal. What does concern me sometimes is that the language is evolving purely because the majority of the population didn't pay attention at school and now the rest of us have to fall in line. Democratisation of language isn't necessarily a good thing.
And don't get me started on apostrophes.
But I digresse, bac 2the reeding & righting.LOL
Quote: Antrax @ March 13 2011, 10:34 AM GMTAs a final point... does this matter at all in dialogue? Confusing their, they're, there, etc. yes, I can see the difficulty there... but since when has dialogue needed to be grammatically exact? Surely it's better to reflect the language as people actually speak it? Yes, 'nice' may be imprecise, but it's a word people use.
You've got a point they're.
Quote: Declan @ March 13 2011, 10:49 AM GMTI have no problems with language evolving and am grateful that I'm a native English-speaker who has the beauty of the English language at my disposal. What does concern me sometimes is that the language is evolving purely because the majority of the population didn't pay attention at school and now the rest of us have to fall in line. Democratisation of language isn't necessarily a good thing.
I can't really disagree with any of that! It's disappointing, I'll agree. As I say, quadrilogy makes my blood boil. Although the oddity is that a lot of these things are older than you think - from a quick Google I see that quadrilogy was possibly coined in the 1800s and had nothing to do with the Alien boxset.
Is there a degree to which it's about different education systems though? Disinterested is an interesting case in point, as is something like infer and imply (another matter of great usage debate). Do people get caught up and annoyed at perceived misuse because of previous attempts to lock down the language? That's the thing with disinterest - uninterested has always been a legitimate meaning of that word. So why is there any debate at all? Presumably at some time people got determined to fix the language at a specific point and decided one meaning was legit and another wasn't.
So is it less about 'not paying attention at school' and more about unconsciously rejecting a flawed orthodoxy?
Seems to me there is no opposite to interest in the same way one can be enchanted and disenchanted. If there is a reaction one is taking interest even if it is in a positive or negative way.. so disinterested and uninterested kinda (did you see what I did there) have to be the same thing don't they?
You know that bit in Father Ted, where they've been up all night in a smoke-filled haze trying to come up with a song for the Eurovision Song Contest, and all Ted can do is eff and blind at Dougal.
That. That's where I'm at.
Hmmm... Art for Art's Sake...
WHERE DID I PUT THAT F*&^ING SCRIPT? WHERE???? EH???? WHERE DID I SHOVE THE F^&&*^&ING THING? FILE IT? FILE IT? F&^% OFF!
And now I feel calm enough to return to my impotent decisions.
Quote: Declan @ March 13 2011, 10:49 AM GMTBut I digresse, bac 2the reeding & righting.LOL
There's actually scripts in 'txt spk' in there?
Horrors.
Let me redefine the words once and for all:
'Disinterested' is what the entire forum is feeling right now.
'Uninterested' is what the entire forum is feeling right now.
Quote: Declan @ March 13 2011, 10:49 AM GMTIn Simon's defence, when you've read 1100 scripts, the majority of which are littered with spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, it makes one's brain weep.
I agree with the issue of spelling mistakes. Writers should at least be able to spell and know the difference between 'discrete' and 'discreet'.
However, when it comes to grammar that's a different issue because we write what our characters would say. If they use the wrong words, or say words in the wrong order, or split infinitives or end with a preposition - then that's the type of character they are! Remember Mrs. Malaprop and Rev. Spooner, that's language evolution for you. And don't forget Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland saying 'When I use a word,it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'
And that m'lud concludes my defence of bad grammar and incorrect word usage in my scripts.
That's fine, but when somebody says "I'm going round they're house" the author needs a slap, not the character.
Quote: Declan @ March 13 2011, 12:04 PM GMTThat's fine, but when somebody says "I'm going round they're house" the author needs a slap, not the character.
Exactly Simon. That's what I said, although not as colourfully as you did.
Quote: scubanut @ March 13 2011, 12:08 PM GMTExactly Simon. That's what I said, although not as colourfully as you did.
Oops, sorry Declan - I came over all Humpty Dumpty there.Didn't mean to confuse you with Simon....
Ok, here's an example for you.
I've just read the intro for a script.
"A man in his fiftys sits at a bar."
Come on then, what would you do?
It doesn't mean I'm going to discard the script straight away, but it's giving me a reason to dislike it from the start. I really want to put it in the Yes pile, but I'm also looking for reasons to bin it. And almost as importantly, I'm looking for reasons to work with the author and also reasons not to.
Though, having said that, spell check didn't flag it up, so is fiftys the collective form of fifty-fifty-nine?
"How many fingers am I holding up, Smith?"
"I don't know! I don't care!"
Anyone else spotted that the entire Sitcommission is online right now?
Why? Because it's preferable to reading scripts littered with spelling mistakes and bad grammar.
Griff is entirely right that we should differentiate between a character misusing a word (as Del Boy would) and a writer misusing it. Unfortunately most of the mistakes turn up in the action part of the script rather than the dialogue.
We're a microcosm of the industry. If misusing a word pisses us off what do you think it does to a reader at a production company?
Unless you're a state registered hermit you will know someone who could look over your script before sending it out. Someone who could pick up on the you're/your/their/there/they're mistakes before emailing it.