What were those two intruders going to do? If rape/attack her then good for her for defending herself. But if they only wanted to steal the TV then you can't ask us to feel good that they're dead. It seems that only American gun fans think like that.
David Cameron's giving yet another speach at Gregg's. What is it with him that place? He's always f**king giving a press conference from Gregg's.
Quote: zooo @ January 14 2011, 1:59 PM GMTWhat were those two intruders going to do? If rape/attack her then good for her for defending herself. But if they only wanted to steal the TV then you can't ask us to feel good that they're dead. It seems that only American gun fans think like that.
First of all, you're mistaken in your belief that "only American gun fans think like that." You'd probably be surprised by non-gun-owning citizens' views on the subject. There is a deeply rooted belief in this nation that a person's home is their own dominion and violating its sanctity is one of the greatest crimes imaginable. Even the most peace-and-love type of person is going to say, "It's sad that he's dead but he shouldn't have broken into her house and the blame lies with him alone."
There's absolutely no way of know a criminal's intent when he kicks down your door and barges inside. Rape? Murder? Kidnapping? Theft? Perhaps all of the above.
I don't know how it works in the UK, but if you break into an occupied residence here in the States you're guaranteed a prison sentence. People don't like to go to prison -- especially people with prior convictions who may be looking at 30+ years for another conviction -- so a simple burglary often becomes a murder when the intruders are caught in the act by the homeowner. That's why there isn't a court in the country which will rule against someone who kills an intruder.
Criminals are well aware of the above facts so it's fair to assume that anyone who follows through with their plans to break into a home is armed and prepared for violence.
I think criminals should have WAAAY longer prison sentences. Even for quite mild crimes.
I think tazers might be a good plan (although they may need some improvement). That way you don't get hurt, you disable the criminal, he gets put away for decades, and no one dies.
Quote: DaButt @ January 14 2011, 2:15 PM GMTCriminals are well aware of the above facts so it's fair to assume that anyone who follows through with their plans to break into a home is armed and prepared for violence.
Possibly. But only in your country. You do act like you think the same is, or should be true here, and it isn't.
Quote: zooo @ January 14 2011, 2:19 PM GMTYou do act like you think the same is, or should be true here, and it isn't.
Some American's, usually right-wingers, do have a tendancy to think of Europe as some kind of Sodom and Gomorrah. And firmly believe that the American way of life is the ONLY way of life. Not DaButt, obviously. 
Quote: zooo @ January 14 2011, 2:19 PM GMTI think tazers might be a good plan (although they may need some improvement). That way you don't get hurt, you disable the criminal, he gets put away for decades, and no one dies.
1) Think it through. A Taser incapacitates someone for about 3 seconds and then he recovers quickly and is ready for action again. How does an 82-year-old woman subdue a 250-pound gang member (notice the tattoo?) until the police arrive? The only way would be to continuously zap him for at least 5 minutes and I can only assume that it would probably be fatal. Tasers may not even be capable of such sustained use; I'm not an expert.
2) Then there's the fact that this woman faced 2 intruders. There's no way she could zap and control 2 people at once.
3) If the intruders have guns your Taser is worthless.
Quote: zooo @ January 14 2011, 2:19 PM GMTPossibly. But only in your country. You do act like you think the same is, or should be true here, and it isn't.
So people in the UK won't defend themselves, their family members and their property when someone kicks down their door? Fascinating.
Quote: chipolata @ January 14 2011, 2:24 PM GMTSome American's, usually right-wingers, do have a tendancy to think of Europe as some kind of Sodom and Gomorrah. And firmly believe that the American way of life is the ONLY way of life. Not DaButt, obviously.
Not at all, but self-preservation is perhaps the strongest and most basic instinct a living creature possesses. It's hard to believe it's simply vanished on an entire continent.
Oh you can be a patronising tart sometimes, Dabutt!
I clearly meant this bit:
Criminals are well aware of the above facts so it's fair to assume that anyone who follows through with their plans to break into a home is armed and prepared for violence.
The criminals here are NOT well aware of the above facts, because those facts only apply to American culture, not English!
Anyway, as several others have said, it's not worth talking about this as you don't or won't digest what we say about our culture, and continue to judge the world as though America is the norm, or the only country who has it right. (Against all the evidence to the contrary.)
Quote: DaButt @ January 14 2011, 2:31 PM GMT1)
Not at all, but self-preservation is perhaps the strongest and most basic instinct a living creature possesses. It's hard to believe it's simply vanished on an entire continent.
Why do you even have a police force or system of courts? In your eyes they're clearly completely innefective, so why not just abolish them all together and arm every single citizen?
Quote: chipolata @ January 14 2011, 2:35 PM GMTWhy do you even have a police force or system of courts? In your eyes they're clearly completely innefective, so why not just abolish them all together and arm every single citizen?
In a perfect scenario you'll have a phone handy and be able to dial 911. It will probably take at least 5 minutes for a police officer to arrive after you've called and even longer if you live in the middle of nowhere. During that time it's you vs. the intruder and your life is literally in the intruder's hands if you are unarmed.
In a less-than-perfect scenario you and your family are asleep upstairs, the phone is downstairs and you're in for a very long and dangerous wait if you're unarmed.
I'm honestly not trying to convince you to change your laws or anything, I'm just perplexed by the apparent lack of a self-defence instinct. Zooo's remark about self-defence being OK if murder or rape was intended seems to indicate that it's still there but I can't fathom how someone can make that decision on the spot because I doubt intruders in the UK bellow their intentions upon entering residences.
Because if someone was stealing my TV, I'd keep well out of the way and call the police. If he then continued on anywhere near me I'd tear his balls off, stab him, and/or whack him around the head with the massive spanner I keep under my bed.
I'm not going to get involved unless absolutely necessary, not just to protect my TV, belongings or house. That's lunacy.
Quote: DaButt @ January 14 2011, 2:53 PM GMTI'm just perplexed by the apparent lack of a self-defence instinct.
There isn't one, we just don't have guns and shoot them, and most, if not almost all, intruders won't have guns either, as they won't expect to need such a weapon; possibly they do over there, different culture. We'd go downstairs, golf club in hand, and give them a whack.
Tazer technology has improved greatly. The company that makes them now make a multi shot version, a self contained shotgun cartridge version and all of these in high powered settings.
A Russian company has a fully auto version.
Sadly if I lived in the US I'd probably buy a Glock.
And then end up shooting myself.
Which probably helps explain why gun restrictions are a good thing.
Quote: DaButt @ January 14 2011, 2:53 PM GMTIn a perfect scenario you'll have a phone handy and be able to dial 911. It will probably take at least 5 minutes for a police officer to arrive after you've called and even longer if you live in the middle of nowhere. During that time it's you vs. the intruder and your life is literally in the intruder's hands if you are unarmed.
In a less-than-perfect scenario you and your family are asleep upstairs, the phone is downstairs and you're in for a very long and dangerous wait if you're unarmed.
I'm honestly not trying to convince you to change your laws or anything, I'm just perplexed by the apparent lack of a self-defence instinct. Zooo's remark about self-defence being OK if murder or rape was intended seems to indicate that it's still there but I can't fathom how someone can make that decision on the spot because I doubt intruders in the UK bellow their intentions upon entering residences.
The problem is not with people not wanting to defend themselves I think the problem lies with the fact with the US gun laws as it stands criminals and public are tooled up alike. Your local petty criminal in the UK is not armed because access to guns is not that easy. Therefore there is no need for your average Joe to be tooled up either. Personally if anyone broke into my house they'd have my steering lock wrapped across their heads but it would be very rare for them to have a firearm. Also without firearms criminals are surely more likely to scarper than stick around.
It sounds like we're mostly on the same page here. Zooo and Stott keep deadly weapons handy just like I do. They choose spanners and golf clubs while I keep a .40 caliber pistol nearby. The end result will be the same but I just feel better about not having to get within swinging distance of my assailants. Besides, I'd hate to ruin a good 9-iron (although I don't own one) and I can never find my wrenches when I need them.
Quote: DaButt @ January 14 2011, 3:09 PM GMTIt sounds like we're mostly on the same page here. Zooo and Stott keep deadly weapons handy just like I do. They choose spanners and golf clubs while I keep a .40 caliber pistol nearby. The end result will be the same but I just feel better about not having to get within swinging distance of my assailants. Besides, I'd hate to ruin a good 9-iron (although I don't own one) and I can never find my wrenches when I need them.
I do still want a tazer.