I read the news today oh boy! Page 298

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 3:13 PM GMT

What an odd thing to say. What point are you trying to make?

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Pretty simple point. Even in countries where firearms are legal, in some cases pistols for self defence. It's not considered a good idea for a civilian be able to a high powered firearm with a large magazine?

Particularly when the risk assessment on a combat pistol with a 33 round clip is less than that on studying "great French posts of the 17th century" at the local tech college.

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 3:18 PM GMT

Not at all.

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Really where's the diference?

Quote: sootyj @ January 13 2011, 3:19 PM GMT

It's not considered a good idea for a civilian be able to a high powered firearm with a large magazine?

Particularly when the risk assessment on a combat pistol with a 33 round clip is less than that on studying "great French posts of the 17th century" at the local tech college.

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What in the hell does "high powered" even mean? It's a great buzzword if you're trying to generate anti-gun hysteria, but it has no basis in fact. It's just an ordinary pistol; Glocks are probably the best-selling pistols in the country and perhaps the world. Magazine capacity has nothing to do with lethality; a gunman armed with 12 single-shot derringers can kill as many people as someone with a 12-shot magazine.

Mentally unstable people are legally forbidden to purchase or possess firearms. This man was obviously crazy and should never have been allowed to buy a pistol. If the sheriff who seems so eager to blame Sarah Palin for causing this disaster had actually acted during his department's frequent contact with the deranged shooter he would have had a criminal/mental history and would have been unable to purchase a gun.

Quote: sootyj @ January 13 2011, 3:19 PM GMT

Really where's the diference?

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Let's try 2003 for starters.

High powered? More than a water pistol and certainly any bullet designed to kill.

Pretty much every commentator todate has commented on how the enormous magazine allowed him to hit so many people.

Also registering as some one being to mentally ill to do something (own a car, gun, raise kids, be a magistrate what ever). Is a hugely, complex, expensive and unpredictable process. And easily abused.

DaButt you own a similar firearm? What do you actually need it for?

Is it just for..fun?

Perhaps people should have access to guns, perhaps you should be able to own one if you live in a high crime neighbourhood.

But owning it for shits and giggles?

nb check out how often in the US when the cops shoot someone they say they thought he was armed. An excusethat's hugely rare in Europe.

Still feel it makes you safe?

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 3:29 PM GMT

Let's try 2003 for starters.

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I think sometimes you thank you friends when they tell you you're acting crazy.

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 3:29 PM GMT

This man was obviously crazy

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If you think someone being that disturbed is that obvious then being armed won't help you.

The line between eccentricity and mental illness may not be obvious.

The US is getting a nasty rep for persecuting the mentally ill rather than applying simple gun controls.

Quote: sootyj @ January 13 2011, 4:36 PM GMT

Pretty much every commentator todate has commented on how the enormous magazine allowed him to hit so many people.

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How many of those commentators were anti-gun to begin with?

California has a 10-round limit on magazine capacity but it's done nothing to prevent killings. It's ridiculous that a 10-round magazine is legal but an 11-round magazine isn't when all you have to do is carry multiple weapons and/or magazines to get the same effect. Tape two legal 10-round mags together and you've circumvented the law quite easily.

Quote: sootyj @ January 13 2011, 4:36 PM GMT

Also registering as some one being to mentally ill to do something (own a car, gun, raise kids, be a magistrate what ever). Is a hugely, complex, expensive and unpredictable process.

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No, it's quite simple. If you meet any of these criteria you can't buy a gun:

Convicted felons and people under indictment for a felony
Fugitives
Unlawful drug users or drug addicts
Those who have been involuntarily committed to a mental institution
Those who are mentally incompetent in the eyes of the court
Individuals who have been dishonorably discharged from the military
Those that have renounced their American citizenship
People who have domestic violence restraining orders
Those who have been convicted of violent crimes or domestic violence

The shooter was kicked out of school for being crazy and had a history of making death threats and acting erratically. If the cops who dealt with him had done their job he would not have qualified to purchase a firearm.

Quote: sootyj @ January 13 2011, 4:36 PM GMT

DaButt you own a similar firearm? What do you actually need it for?

Is it just for..fun?

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Yes, shooting guns is fun. I enjoy going to the range and shooting guns with my friends. That said, it is also for my personal protection. I live in a very safe neighborhood of nice homes and there are people out there who would like to take my nice things in addition to nutcases like the Arizona shooter who just want to murder people. There were 6 cases in my city in 2010 where homeowners killed intruders. All 6 were found to be justified and no charges were filed. There was just another one last week. There were also cases where intruders killed unarmed homeowners so, given a choice, I'd rather be armed if someone breaks into my home.

Mere possession of a firearm doesn't turn a sane, law-abiding person into a bloodthirsty murderer any more than having a cigarette lighter in your pocket turns you into an arsonist bent on burning down a school filled with children. I have no criminal record, I've passed a thorough background check and I've had extensive training in firearm safety and proficiency. I'm not a threat to anyone but criminals.

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 6:14 PM GMT

How many of those commentators were anti-gun to begin with?

California has a 10-round limit on magazine capacity but it's done nothing to prevent killings. It's ridiculous that a 10-round magazine is legal but an 11-round magazine isn't when all you have to do is carry multiple weapons and/or magazines to get the same effect. Tape two legal 10-round mags together and you've circumvented the law quite easily.

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He was over powered whilst reloading.

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 6:14 PM GMT

Mere possession of a firearm doesn't turn a sane, law-abiding person into a bloodthirsty murderer any more than having a cigarette lighter in your pocket turns you into an arsonist bent on burning down a school filled with children.

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No but I bet buying large quantities of accelerants and other dangerous chemicals isn't.

If you want to buy a hunting weapon or rent one at a gun club that could be more understandable?

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 6:14 PM GMT

No, it's quite simple. If you meet any of these criteria you can't buy a gun:

Those who have been involuntarily committed to a mental institution

A tiny and shrinking number of people with mental health issues. Of course gun legislation inadvertently encourages locking up the mentally ill. You'd never kick a student out of college in the UK because he might bring a gun to class. In the states it's a real risk.

Don't you get how corrosive their effect is on your society?

Those who are mentally incompetent in the eyes of the court

And like wise these poor sods.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/10/sarah-palin-arizona-shooting-fallout

I hope this business hasn't damaged Palin's chances too much of being president. She's a dangerous nutter, but she'd be a very entertaing Commander in Chief.

Quote: sootyj @ January 13 2011, 6:15 PM GMT

He was over powered whilst reloading.

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Sounds like he was thankfully ill-prepared. It takes less than 2 seconds to reload and no time at all to start shooting a second gun.

So if he'd had a California-legal magazine he would only have shot 10 people instead of 18. If he'd only had a 6-shot magazine he'd have only shot 6 people. Take that to the anti-gun lobby's logical conclusion and he wouldn't have shot anyone if guns were illegal. So confiscate the guns from the law-abiding citizens and nobody will have firearms. Except for the criminals, of course, because laws mean nothing to them.

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 6:29 PM GMT

Sounds like he was thankfully ill-prepared. It takes less than 2 seconds to reload and no time at all to start shooting a second gun.

So if he'd had a California-legal magazine he would only have shot 10 people instead of 18. If he'd only had a 6-shot magazine he'd have only shot 6 people. Take that to the anti-gun lobby's logical conclusion and he wouldn't have shot anyone if guns were illegal. So confiscate the guns from the law-abiding citizens and nobody will have firearms. Except for the criminals, of course, because laws mean nothing to them.

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Why do you even care about this debate, DaButt? Even if fifty schoolkids a day were shot for the next fifty years, America will never get rid of guns. Or introduce any particularly stringent gun laws.

You know I'm not going to get into the physics of how one massacres a room full of people with a pistol. It feels a little disrespectful

So I guess you're right,

Quote: chipolata @ January 13 2011, 6:32 PM GMT

Or introduce any particularly stringent gun laws.

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Our gun laws are quite stringent.

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 6:34 PM GMT

Our gun laws are quite stringent.

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Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07
Switzerland (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10
Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002)0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006)

(Apologies for data being hard to read.)
IF these figures are to be believed:
It's interesting that you're more likely to get killed accidentally from a gun in the US, than murdered by one almost anywhere else.

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 6:34 PM GMT

Our gun laws are quite stringent.

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Being that based on interrupting a preexisting right, they aren't nor can they be.

In the same way drivers license will never be as stringent as pilots licenses.

You know the real tragedy is the line "because he might have a gun" or "he might get a gun"

makes you way more likely to get locked up or rated as mentally incompetent by the courts then anywhere else in the free world

Quote: sootyj @ January 13 2011, 6:33 PM GMT

It feels a little disrespectful

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Sort of like trying to pin the blame for the murders on a politician and political party that the insane gunman neither followed nor cared anything about?

The suicide column is really tragic.

Guns make suicide very, very easy.

Quote: DaButt @ January 13 2011, 6:40 PM GMT

Sort of like trying to pin the blame for the murders on a politician and political party that the insane gunman neither followed nor cared anything about?

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Perhaps confused, perhaps somewhat mentally ill.

Definitely too much access to a gun.