The Definition of Well Written Page 2

I think if we can get to the essence of what makes a work of art good, then you may as well have the analysis, rather than the work, and therefore the work cannot be that good.

For it to have quality it has to speak in ways that can't be boiled down logically - it must be acting, somehow, as a whole to touch something we can't make explicit.

Here I am assuming "well written" is equivalent to the finished work being in some sense "good". I am not very happy with a definition of quality based on achieving an "intended" effect. The best artists are not straight-jacketing, and limiting, themselves with narrow plans, but letting the thing live and grow and breathe organically, so it is always free to go in unexpected or "spontaneous" directions. They don't necessarily have an intended effect, and if they do we may as well replace the limited art-work with a description of this effect.

I'm sure he does.

My question is- How does he do it?

What are the things in the text that we can point to and say "Look at how he did that marvelous thing!"

Maybe somebody would like to pick a sitcom that they think is really well-written and say why.

When I say well-written I mean something different than "I think it's funny" or "I like it"

I rarely, if ever, laugh out loud at 30rock but I'd contend it's one of the best written sitcoms on air. I'm consistently engaged, charmed, and amused. I think they do this by weaving their A,B, and C stories in really unexpected ways, developing characters which are consistently saying and doing surprising things, and crafting a dynamically paced episode which keeps moving forward even while slowing down.

Quote: JPM1 @ December 2 2010, 1:58 PM GMT

I rarely, if ever, laugh out loud at 30rock

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You weirdo.

"I'm sure he does.

My question is- How does he do it?

What are the things in the text that we can point to and say "Look at how he did that marvelous thing!"

If it's such a "marvelous" thing you won't be able to say how he does it. If you could, everybody would be doing it, and it wouldn't be half so marvelous!

Quote: Wistyish @ December 2 2010, 1:53 PM GMT

I am not very happy with a definition of quality based on achieving an "intended" effect

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Clearly my definition was of good writing not of a good work of art.

D.H. Lawrence's dictat still applies: 'Never trust the artist. Trust the tale'.

Quote: Wistyish @ December 2 2010, 1:53 PM GMT

I think if we can get to the essence of what makes a work of art good, then you may as well have the analysis, rather than the work, and therefore the work cannot be that good.

For it to have quality it has to speak in ways that can't be boiled down logically - it must be acting, somehow, as a whole to touch something we can't make explicit.

Here I am assuming "well written" is equivalent to the finished work being in some sense "good". I am not very happy with a definition of quality based on achieving an "intended" effect. The best artists are not straight-jacketing, and limiting, themselves with narrow plans, but letting the thing live and grow and breathe organically, so it is always free to go in unexpected or "spontaneous" directions. They don't necessarily have an intended effect, and if they do we may as well replace the limited art-work with a description of this effect.

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Wisty I like your argument! I don't know that I agree with it but I like it!

I think "good" is probably not a really useful term given it's level of subjectivity. Though the "well" in well written doesn't seem much better, does it.... you use the word quality - should we use that instead?

I'm inferring from your posts that you don't think it's wise to analyse work? Is that correct or have I misread you?

Agreed - a good writer is probably free to let something develop spontaneously but I'd argue that happens in the development stages - what about once s/he starts editing? Isn't s/he then making choices that reflect some intention (whether conscious or unconscious?)

I respectfully disagree that a description of the effect could replace the work itself. Do the tomes on the themes of Macbeth somehow replace the play itself?

Quote: Matthew Stott @ December 2 2010, 1:59 PM GMT

You weirdo.

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Wait, do you mean weird because I don't laugh out loud 30rock?

I LOVE 30rock, don't get me wrong, I just don't think it's that kind of funny.

Are you a fan of the show?

What was your MA in JPM1 you say you wrote a sitcom script as your final project but they didn't teach comedy on the course, Were none of these areas you are asking about covered then?

Quote: JohnnyD @ December 2 2010, 2:06 PM GMT

D.H. Lawrence's dictat still applies: 'Never trust the artist. Trust the tale'.

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It's a good point and one I sort of addressed with Nat's take on The Trip. Once it is out there - the artist doesn't own it anymore.

It was a "Writing for Stage and Broadcast Media"

These areas were discussed ad infinitum in regards to most forms OTHER than sitcom, that's why I wanted to have a sitcom-specific discussion here.

Marc, I'm glad you've joined us - I was afraid that when we moved you'd abandon the debate - glad to have you!

I'm like a cockroach

Quote: Marc P @ December 2 2010, 2:11 PM GMT

It's a good point and one I sort of addressed with Nat's take on The Trip. Once it is out there - the artist doesn't own it anymore.

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I'd like some clarification on that Marc - what do you mean the artist doesn't own it? The artist remains the maker and all discourse is centered around his or her hard work, no?

If we all had a lengthy discussion on here about how The Trip was a potent drama about the shift of identity a man feels at that age, but then Winterbottom came on and said "you twits! It's a simple buddy sitcom meant to make you laugh a minimum of four times per minute..." Wouldn't we be obligated to reconsider our position?

(Insert joke about "reconsidering positions" here)

Quote: Marc P @ December 2 2010, 2:11 PM GMT

Once it is out there - the artist doesn't own it anymore.

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You'll do anything to disown that Holby City episode!

Quote: chipolata @ December 2 2010, 2:41 PM GMT

You'll do anything to disown that Holby City episode!

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Did Marc write a Holby CIty!?!

Marc, was it well-written?

but back to our serious debate!

Name the sitcom you think is the most "well-written" sitcom and why.

Quote: JPM1 @ December 2 2010, 2:08 PM GMT

Wait, do you mean weird because I don't laugh out loud 30rock?

I LOVE 30rock, don't get me wrong, I just don't think it's that kind of funny.

Are you a fan of the show?

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Yes I'm a big fan, and it certainly makes me laugh out loud!

maybe I am a weirdo...

Sitcom you think is most "well-written" and why?