As a general rule you only take something to bits if it's broken or you don't know how it works.
It isn't and I do.
That's why I find it difficult/tedious to engage in this sort of conversation.
That and the fact that it's quite patently a wind-up.
The Trip - Series 1 Page 27
Quote: Lazzard @ December 2 2010, 9:14 AM GMTAs a general rule you only take something to bits if its broken or you don't know how it works.
It isn't and I do.
That's why I find it difficult/tedious to engage in this sort of conversation.
That and the fact that it's quite patently a wind-up.
Please clarify - who do you believe is doing the winding up?
If you know how it works I'd love for you to explain it to me because I don't.
This is, in fact, a less than sincere post on my part. In truth, I don't believe you can explain it. Not because you're not an intelligent person but because I don't think The Trip is not actually "well-written" not according to any serious definition.
Remember "well-written" is different than "funny" or "likable" Tell me why, in real dramaturgical terms, why this show is successful. (By successful I mean how does it achieve what it sets out to do; therefore, please tell me both what it sets out to do and how it does it.)
I suppose it's lunacy to expect a serious response to this.... by the way - I'd be happy to get a response to this from anyone, not just Lazzard.
Hope everyone is enjoying the snow!
You must be exhausting to know in person JPM!
Did you like your cornflakes?
WHY!
EXPLAIN WHY!!!!!
Zooo, please don't make me repeat myself. I specifically said what I am asking for is different than "likable"
Yes, it is exhausting... working hard, thinking critically, taking time to type a well reasoned argument.... but isn't that what makes modern civilization great?
No.
Zooo, I just looked at your profile and was surprised to find you're doing an MA in writing. Have you just finished or just started? I just completed mine...
Surely someone capable of an MA in creative writing could come up with a more creative response than that....
Quote: JPM1 @ December 2 2010, 9:47 AM GMTZooo, I just looked at your profile and was surprised to find you're doing an MA in writing. Have you just finished or just started? I just completed mine...
Surely someone capable of an MA in creative writing could come up with a more creative response than that....
No it wasn't a comment at you re bullying. If, as I have said before, you read above I have defined why it is well written and what well written means. Well done for doing your MA but there comes a time, when being creative, to put the paradigms and theory behind and simply write dear boy - to paraphrase the old stage actor. Again, as I said earlier, deconstruction is only a useful creative tool up to the point. If there was formula one employs when writing a sitcom that one could simply follow - then there would be a lot more brilliant sitcoms on television never mind what is taught on comedy modules.
Quote: JPM1 @ December 2 2010, 9:47 AM GMTZooo, I just looked at your profile and was surprised to find you're doing an MA in writing. Have you just finished or just started? I just completed mine...
Surely someone capable of an MA in creative writing could come up with a more creative response than that....
Just finished.
Where did you do yours?
Unfortunately it wasn't an MA in internet comedy board posting. Although there probably will be one soon.
Quote: zooo @ December 2 2010, 10:06 AM GMTJust finished.
Where did you do yours?Unfortunately it wasn't an MA in internet comedy board posting. Although there probably will be one soon.
That made me do one of those semi circular mouth emoticons.
Quote: JPM1 @ December 2 2010, 9:42 AM GMTYes, it is exhausting... working hard, thinking critically, taking time to type a well reasoned argument.... but isn't that what makes modern civilization great?
Nah. I am voting for High Definition widescreen television to watch The Trip on.
Quote: JPM1 @ December 1 2010, 9:49 AM GMTEarlier I suggested that if the BBC had classified this as a drama that I would think very differently of it. Coogan's character is so sad, in a way. He seems so deeply unhappy with the way his life has worked out and so impotent to do anything about it.
Quote: JPM1 @ December 2 2010, 9:31 AM GMTPlease clarify - who do you believe is doing the winding up?
If you know how it works I'd love for you to explain it to me because I don't.
This is, in fact, a less than sincere post on my part. In truth, I don't believe you can explain it. Not because you're not an intelligent person but because I don't think The Trip is not actually "well-written" not according to any serious definition.
These two statements seem somewhat contradictory. In the first you're suggesting that it's because it's catergorised as a sitcom that you have a problem with it, and if it were labelled drama you wouldn't.
Then next thing you know, you're banging the same old drum about it not being well-written, is that just as a sitcom? Or as a drama too?
Also, I really think you should take this discussion down to the Writers Section.
Quote: Marc P @ December 2 2010, 10:05 AM GMTNo it wasn't a comment at you re bullying. If, as I have said before, you read above I have defined why it is well written and what well written means. Well done for doing your MA but there comes a time, when being creative, to put the paradigms and theory behind and simply write dear boy - to paraphrase the old stage actor. Again, as I said earlier, deconstruction is only a useful creative tool up to the point. If there was formula one employs when writing a sitcom that one could simply follow - then there would be a lot more brilliant sitcoms on television never mind what is taught on comedy modules.
Hi Marc,
Now I have to be hones, comments like "dear boy" (regardless if quoting Olivier) do come off as quite condescending. I'm not saying you intended it, just that it reads that way.
To your points:
1.) you defined "well-written" thusly: My definition of good writing is probably meaningless to you. It means I admire it, and if it is comedy it makes me laugh! People could do a degree probably in analysing what is good writing.
I'd accuse you here of making a rhetorical cul-de-sac. To say that well-written to you is different than to others is to, in effect, terminate the discussion. Which is fine - if you want to move on to greener pastures, sure... this is why I'm hoping someone else chimes in with a definition which can be utilized to forward our debate about whether or not the show is well-written.
2.) I told you several pages ago that I was putting away the theory and moving on to the reality of writing. This is, in my view, the very heart of writing - the pursuit of understanding and then creating successful text.
3.) I continue to disagree with your assertion that deconstruction is only useful to a point. That strikes me as a kind of anti-intellectualism that holds back from serious inquiry.
4.) I have never, and would never, suggest that there is a formula or that The Trip holds any key to said formula. But didn't say a couple of posts ago that "It's OK to have a basic layout. It's what sitcom does." this seems to indicate that you do perceive sitcoms to have some modicum of formula.
5.)There was no comedy module on my course -was there one on yours?
He was being an old stage actor with the 'dear boy'! That's how they talk.
Quote: chipolata @ December 2 2010, 10:17 AM GMTThese two statements seem somewhat contradictory. In the first you're suggesting that it's because it's catergorised as a sitcom that you have a problem with it, and if it were labelled drama you wouldn't.
Then next thing you know, you're banging the same old drum about it not being well-written, is that just as a sitcom? Or as a drama too?
Also, I really think you should take this discussion down to the Writers Section.
The conversation re: classification was a tangent from the primary debate regarding wether or not it's well-written.
If it was categorised as a drama I'd have different issues with it.
Again, if the moderators (which I assume means Aaron) have a problem with this discussion happening here - I'm happy to move elsewhere. Please just let me know.
Also - if everyone reading this has a problem with my line of questioning, why arent' I just being ignored? Feel free to talk about whatever aspect of The Trip you'd prefer. I don't really hear anyone else putting forth any other conversation starter...
I'm actually quite surprised in this Health and Safety obsessed day and age they just let any one climb up the limestone cliffs. Coogan looked quite precarious going up without ropes or anything.
Quote: JPM1 @ December 2 2010, 10:32 AM GMTHi Marc,
Now I have to be hones, comments like "dear boy" (regardless if quoting Olivier) do come off as quite condescending. I'm not saying you intended it, just that it reads that way.
Olivier was referring to Dustin Hoffman and method acting - it is quite a famous quote
To your points:
1.) you defined "well-written" thusly: My definition of good writing is probably meaningless to you. It means I admire it, and if it is comedy it makes me laugh! People could do a degree probably in analysing what is good writing.
And I stick by that but earlier I defined why the writing was good in The Trip.
I'm hoping someone else chimes in with a definition which can be utilized to forward our debate about whether or not the show is well-written. see above
2.) I told you several pages ago that I was putting away the theory and moving on to the reality of writing. This is, in my view, the very heart of writing - the pursuit of understanding and then creating successful text.
Text is a theory based term. The trouble with theory like all ideologies is that the language itself and the constructs of analysis take on more importance than the text itself
3.) I continue to disagree with your assertion that deconstruction is only useful to a point. That strikes me as a kind of anti-intellectualism that holds back from serious inquiry.
I was speaking as a practitioner not as a theorist. I have nothing against intelligence and serious inquiry.
4.) I have never, and would never, suggest that there is a formula or that The Trip holds any key to said formula. But didn't say a couple of posts ago that "It's OK to have a basic layout. It's what sitcom does." this seems to indicate that you do perceive sitcoms to have some modicum of formula.
They don't have a universal formula.
5.)There was no comedy module on my course -was there one on yours?
No. I didn't do an MA in writing stuff.
Quote: chipolata @ December 2 2010, 10:38 AM GMTI'm actually quite surprised in this Health and Safety obsessed day and age they just let any one climb up the limestone cliffs. Coogan looked quite precarious going up without ropes or anything.
He probably had some Kendal Mint Cake.