The Trip - Series 1 Page 18

Quote: JPM1 @ November 25 2010, 2:09 PM GMT

Thanks Marc,

I've just completed a Master's (with distinction! whoopie for moi!) in writing, my final was an original sitcom. I'm going to lay off the theory for a while and focus on reality.

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Sorry I thought it was a genuine question. Media school courses are great for the theory as you say.

'You are absolutely right that very often characters in sitcoms do not evolve, however if you look at Peep Show or the fabulous Rev, you'll find examples, almost always British by the way, where they do.'

I am not sure the characters have evolved. Things have happened to them, weddings whatnot but essentially the character engine of the show is pretty much Staus Quo.

'Ok so if the point is that they don't arc and each episode is supposed to be a self contained event then why set up a six episode series as a single trip, going so far as to title it "the trip"?'

I didn't say it was - just referring to your question and explaining how most sitcoms work. We will know more about the artists vision re arc or not when we have seen the whole piece I guess.
I am guessing the title refers in a literal sense to the actual journey they are making and perhaps a nod to the road movie genre. Either subverting or echoing the norms of that genre. I guess we will discover which soon enough.

'And if each episode is self-contained why are so many threads established and then dropped? I'd argue its pure lazy writing...'

I am guessing, again, that you argued better in your long essay for your degree, Like I say, we will know more about dropped threads when we have the whole tapestry in view.

The less-circuitous answer about the writing issue is, frankly, that writing credible plots with original characters, then making it funny as well, is hard work. Two old and skilled comedy hands semi-improvising material around the flimsiest of premises and the most lightweight of plots... isn't difficult (in the same way). Discussing the quality of writing on this show compared with other sitcoms is rather a moot point. It's not a sitcom, in my opinion, it's a series of half-hour comedy sketches using recurrent characters.

This isn't a show, as a writer, which you would sit down and attempt to put on the page. The "writing" all flows from the fact you know who your lead actors/characters are, what the basic conceit is, and the style of show you're making. This is not a show that is written in the traditional sense. As a sitcom, it's bad writing. As the show it's trying to be (i.e. not a sitcom), it's decent - and sometimes excellent - writing.

Whether it's style over substance (much like the food that features in the programme?), that's a matter of opinion. I'm minded of a bit Peter Cook (as EL Wisty) used to do about the monarchy... "The Royal Family do some very boring things. But when they do something boring, people say 'How very interesting that they, the Royal Family, are doing something so very boring! Where as when I do something boring...'"

It is the hardest thing in the world sometimes to make something look easy.

Quote: Marc P @ November 25 2010, 3:05 PM GMT

It is the hardest thing in the world sometimes to make something look easy.

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It's certainly made to look easy. And I can appreciate the work that will have actually gone into every scene and every line. But the net result just doesn't do it for me. I'm impressed by the technique, but it leaves me cold. I simply don't feel any love for the show at all.

Quote: Tim Walker @ November 25 2010, 2:56 PM GMT

The less-circuitous answer about the writing issue is, frankly, that writing credible plots with original characters, then making it funny as well, is hard work. Two old and skilled comedy hands semi-improvising material around the flimsiest of premises and the most lightweight of plots... isn't difficult (in the same way). Discussing the quality of writing on this show compared with other sitcoms is rather a moot point. It's not a sitcom, in my opinion, it's a series of half-hour comedy sketches using recurrent characters.

This isn't a show, as a writer, which you would sit down and attempt to put on the page. The "writing" all flows from the fact you know who your lead actors/characters are, what the basic conceit is, and the style of show you're making. This is not a show that is written in the traditional sense. As a sitcom, it's bad writing. As the show it's trying to be (i.e. not a sitcom), it's decent - and sometimes excellent - writing.

Whether it's style over substance (much like the food that features in the programme?), that's a matter of opinion. I'm minded of a bit Peter Cook (as EL Wisty) used to do about the monarchy... "The Royal Family have to do very boring things. But when they do something boring, people say 'How very interesting that they, the Royal Family, are doing something so very boring!'...

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Hi Tim - thanks for your thoughts.

I'd challenge you to define the rules of this show. If it's not a sitcom (even though they tell us it is) then what is it? I'm saying it has to be something familiar to us but a well constructed dramatic world should have rules or parameters - could you define those in The Trip?

Quote: Tim Walker @ November 25 2010, 3:10 PM GMT

It's certainly made to look easy. And I can appreciate the work that will have actually gone into every scene and every line. But the net result just doesn't do it for me. I'm impressed by the technique, but it leaves me cold. I simply don't feel any love for the show at all.

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Thats cool, like I say it is a coffee or tea thing. But the craft is certainly there and the effort.

Yep, no denying that.

Marc - does your last post imply that my argument re: The Trip is not argued well?

I take umbrage, God sir!

I declare: You have yet to make a serious, rigourous case for why you can call this show "well-written" You have said the characters are "funny" and "believable" yet I hardly think that counts as a serious case!

There - I have dropped my gloves at your feet!

Quote: JPM1 @ November 25 2010, 3:10 PM GMT

Hi Tim - thanks for your thoughts.

I'd challenge you to define the rules of this show. If it's not a sitcom (even though they tell us it is) then what is it? I'm saying it has to be something familiar to us but a well constructed dramatic world should have rules or parameters - could you define those in The Trip?

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I'm not sure it's very easy to describe or be very specific about the term Sit-com at all these days.
Especially with shows like Help or the League of Gentlemen being considered examples of the Genre.

Quote: JPM1 @ November 25 2010, 3:15 PM GMT

Marc - does your last post imply that my argument re: The Trip is not argued well?

I take umbrage, God sir!

I declare: You have yet to make a serious, rigourous case for why you can call this show "well-written" You have said the characters are "funny" and "believable" yet I hardly think that counts as a serious case!

There - I have dropped my gloves at your feet!

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Just the argument that it was lazy! You may not have found it funny but it wasn't lazy! My definition of good writing is probably meaningless to you. It means I admire it, and if it is comedy it makes me laugh! People could do a degree probably in analysing what is good writing.

Fine! I'll not bother making my own case if people just ignore it!

Sods.

Quote: Marc P @ November 25 2010, 3:18 PM GMT

Just the argument that it was lazy! You may not have found it funny but it wasn't lazy! My definition of good writing is probably meaningless to you. It means I admire it, and if it is comedy it makes me laugh! People could do a degree probably in analysing what is good writing.

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Fair enough....

In that world of intangibles, anything is fair game - if you like it, far be it from me to try to take that away from you. (Although I secretly admit that I wish I could convince you of my case.)

I'm just looking for a high level of critical discourse.

Not least because I feel that the BBC commissioners have ben reckless with my licence fee.

And aren't we all jealous a little bit that Coogan and Brydon get to make an improvised thing without rules...

I would argue that a good writer is one who is in control of the effect they intend.

I simply cannot figure out what effect is intended by The Trip.

Quote: Nat Wicks @ November 25 2010, 3:33 PM GMT

Fine! I'll not bother making my own case if people just ignore it!

Sods.

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I found nothing to disagree with you

Quote: Marc P @ November 25 2010, 3:39 PM GMT

I found nothing to disagree with you

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It was more aimed at mr pushy-pants up there

Even if it is an idiot's account I think I raised some decent arguments

Quote: JPM1 @ November 25 2010, 3:36 PM GMT

aren't we all jealous a little bit that Coogan and Brydon get to make an improvised thing without rules....

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And on that point ladies and gentlemen of the Jury...