University fees Page 12

Quote: PhQnix @ November 16 2010, 9:50 PM GMT

I recognise the element of competition that drives the actions of many humans, but I think cooperation doesn't necessarily disturb competition. I would prefer a more cooperative society and for people to take on a more universal outlook. I don't see why the systems in place should trample so many people who are just trying to live.

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We do and capitalism is what makes it work.

I work for a charity funded by donations and government grants. Made possible by individual sense of both responsibility and entitlement expressed as an economic reality.

It simply wouldn't exist in a socialist or communa;ist society.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 9:56 PM GMT

Nazism always gets unfair stick for making some perfectly reasonable ideas untenable.

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I agree with this, actually. Rhetorically it is an easy get out clause for lazy arguments. However, social darwinism as discussed by the Nazis was really just a pseudo-scientific cover for racism. I think it's fair if people are appalled.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 9:56 PM GMT

China has increased all of it's markers on quality of living (health, life expectancy, education etc). Since becoming a market economy, the same can be said across Africa, where only the foolish send kids to UNESCO schools.

Only a small percentage of the population need to fall by the way side.

It's worth remembering 4% of the UK pay 24% of the taxes.

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I disagree with you on this. I don't want to start pulling statistics out of the ether, but that same 4% probably have their hands on a lot more of the 'countries wealth' than other 96% of taxpayers.

As I see it wealth should not just be generated out of nothing that doesn't benefit some part of a wider society, it should be tied to goods or necessary services. When you're talking about that 24% of tax this is all money which basically appears out of nothingness. It's just such an incomprehensible system to me.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 9:56 PM GMT

Tax percentages should start high and peter off as people become wealthier,

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This is just silly.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 9:56 PM GMT

He was racked with guilt at how they clashed with his Christian faith. That he overcame this showed his great character.

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I am always really happy to see Darwin on our £10 notes.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 9:59 PM GMT

We do and capitalism is what makes it work.

I work for a charity funded by donations and government grants. Made possible by individual sense of both responsibility and entitlement expressed as an economic reality.

It simply wouldn't exist in a socialist or communa;ist society.

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Well no, but then a socialist society wouldn't have any charities. It would just be the state (or society as a whole) which covered such duties.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 9:56 PM GMT

Not at all.

Nazism always gets unfair stick for making some perfectly reasonable ideas untenable.

China has increased all of it's markers on quality of living (health, life expectancy, education etc). Since becoming a market economy, the same can be said across Africa, where only the foolish send kids to UNESCO schools.

Only a small percentage of the population need to fall by the way side.

It's worth remembering 4% of the UK pay 24% of the taxes.

Tax percentages should start high and peter off as people become wealthier,

He was racked with guilt at how they clashed with his Christian faith. That he overcame this showed his great character.

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In order.

- Yup. It would appear you are.
- An extreme take on an admittedly more complicated issue than it's knee-jerk reaction inevitably gets. I'd be interested at just how many reasonable ideas you think Nazism had which only became untenable when acted upon. Isn't that pretty much the definition of a bad idea?
- I don't know enough about China to comment. But when exactly was the idea of a market economy introduced across Africa. Surely not that recently?
- Oh, that's ok then.
- It is. If true. ANd then I'm not sure how exactly it's significant.
- Fine, if a bit outre, but I'm assuming you're getting rid of the welfare state entirely if that's the case. Otherwise you'd just be dis-incentivising pretty much everyone. But I can see a kind of logic in there.

Possibly, I would agree with you re Darwin. Though I don't think he ever ultimately decided his scientific theories ever contradicted his beliefs.

Read a fascinating thing the other day. Exodus really is a myth, slaves didn't build the pyramids. Ancient Egyptian agriculture was so advanced it only needed a small percentage of workers for a percentage of the year. The pyramids were built because idleness (or worklesness as IDS calls it) is a terrible blight. It was a gift of work from the Pharohs to their people. The pointless economy you deride is the very stuff that makes life worth living. Unless you want to start tilling the land by hand.

Quote: PhQnix @ November 16 2010, 10:05 PM GMT

Well no, but then a socialist society wouldn't have any charities. It would just be the state (or society as a whole) which covered such duties.

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Historically they killed the weak and none productive. Not many wheel chair users or Downes Syndrome people in Red China.

Quote: Rob H @ November 16 2010, 10:06 PM GMT

=- Yup. It would appear you are.

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Nope and in order why you're wrong.

Quote: Rob H @ November 16 2010, 10:06 PM GMT

- An extreme take on an admittedly more complicated issue than it's knee-jerk reaction inevitably gets. I'd be interested at just how many reasonable ideas you think Nazism had which only became untenable when acted upon. Isn't that pretty much the definition of a bad idea?

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Nazism had no good ideas of it's own, it was a vast criminal conspiracy that borrowed endlessly. But check out how socially Darwinist policies have been applied in both China and Sweden to end centuries of poverty in one or 2 generations.

My lad has left school today (2nd year of A levels). He has decided that

A) He doesn't want a shit load of debt by going on to university
B) He would now rather get a full time job and life skills.

That has just saved me a shed load of money as he wouldn't have qualified for any grants. I had an endowment policy to pay for his first year come out last year (10K). We will now give this to him to go towards a deposit for a house.

I can't see any reason now to go to university unles you have a specific career in mind (doctor,lawyer etc.)

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 10:11 PM GMT

Read a fascinating thing the other day. Exodus really is a myth, slaves didn't build the pyramids. Ancient Egyptian agriculture was so advanced it only needed a small percentage of workers for a percentage of the year. The pyramids were built because idleness (or worklesness as IDS calls it) is a terrible blight. It was a gift of work from the Pharohs to their people. The pointless economy you deride is the very stuff that makes life worth living. Unless you want to start tilling the land by hand.

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I think there is a difference between pyramids (which sound there like FDR-style Keynsian projects) and money generating more money and sustaining a wealthy elite. Honestly, I do not have the coherency to put down my thoughts on the matter so right now you are chasing me in circles over half-formed ideas.

I'm working on it though, constantly. Hopefully I will be able to explain my ideas and thoughts fully and completely some day.

Basically I'm checking out of that argument, for now!

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 10:11 PM GMT

Historically they killed the weak and none productive. Not many wheel chair users or Downes Syndrome people in Red China.

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Though, if I could just take a moment to distance myself from every communist government that preceded me that would be grand. Those guys were dicks.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 9:59 PM GMT

It simply wouldn't exist in a socialist or communa;ist society.

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I will aim to bow out of this discussion with the possibly cryptic argument that this is a black swan argument.

Quote: Rob H @ November 16 2010, 10:06 PM GMT

- I don't know enough about China to comment. But when exactly was the idea of a market economy introduced across Africa. Surely not that recently?
-

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Africa is a continent not a country,

so Nigeria with it's command economy is a basket case.

Ghana with a liberalised economy isn't it. People need a hand to help them help themselves out of poverty. Not the opression of endless aid.

Bevin thought the same thing.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 10:14 PM GMT

Read a fascinating thing the other day. Exodus really is a myth, slaves didn't build the pyramids. Ancient Egyptian agriculture was so advanced it only needed a small percentage of workers for a percentage of the year. The pyramids were built because idleness (or worklesness as IDS calls it) is a terrible blight. It was a gift of work from the Pharohs to their people. The pointless economy you deride is the very stuff that makes life worth living. Unless you want to start tilling the land by hand.

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But that's one book, presumably, you've read. Doubtless there are scores of books out there which disagree with the latter part of your argument in particular.

F**k me, a bit heavy around here tonight!

I'm oot!

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 10:14 PM GMT

Nazism had no good ideas of it's own, it was a vast criminal conspiracy that borrowed endlessly. But check out how socially Darwinist policies have been applied in both China and Sweden to end centuries of poverty in one or 2 generations.

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You're now changing your argument. Compare the above quote to your initial comment which I responded to.

Quote: Rob H @ November 16 2010, 10:16 PM GMT

I will aim to bow out of this discussion with the possibly cryptic argument that this is a black swan argument.

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Listen Bub I work with the vulnerable and needy have done so for over a decade.

They have a good life on the crumbs from a capitalist society.

They get killed in enlightened socialism.

Quote: Rob H @ November 16 2010, 10:17 PM GMT

But that's one book, presumably, you've read. Doubtless there are scores of books out there which disagree with the latter part of your argument in particular.

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Did I say it was the only truth it just seemed probable.

Quote: Rob H @ November 16 2010, 10:19 PM GMT

You're now changing your argument. Compare the above quote to your initial comment which I responded to.

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Is it sophistry?

Or is he off his tree?

Quote: Rob H @ November 16 2010, 10:16 PM GMT

I will aim to bow out of this discussion with the possibly cryptic argument that this is a black swan argument.

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No it isn't,
The idea socialist societies are in anyway kind generous or functional

is a dead duck

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 10:17 PM GMT

Africa is a continent not a country,

so Nigeria with it's command economy is a basket case.

Ghana with a liberalised economy isn't it. People need a hand to help them help themselves out of poverty. Not the opression of endless aid.

Bevin thought the same thing.

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I was also under the impression that in the continent of Africa there were more than two countries. I'm going off the top of my head here, but I'm guessing 35. Plus there are the -far from straightforward- divisions, without even including tribal ones, of Saharan and sub-Saharan, arab and non-arab, francophile and commonwealth, Muslim and Christian.

Sooty, I wouldn't even count myself a socialist, particularly in traditional macro-economic terms, but I can't seem to help but react to the 'I've read a book and it said this so it must be true and you're all wrong' school of argument you're employing tonight.

You're moving the goalposts with every post. Give a man a fish... for f**k's sake.

Better than I haven't read a book but I have a bunch of assumptions.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 10:24 PM GMT

Listen Bub I work with the vulnerable and needy have done so for over a decade.

They have a good life on the crumbs from a capitalist society.

They get killed in enlightened socialism.

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I'm not sure how your job vindicates your argument.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 10:24 PM GMT

Did I say it was the only truth it just seemed probable.

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You implied it. And probable based upon what? Your vast understanding of Egyptology presumably?

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 10:24 PM GMT

Is it sophistry?

Or is he off his tree?

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That's not even a good pun, yet alone a decent argument.

Quote: sootyj @ November 16 2010, 10:24 PM GMT

No it isn't,
The idea socialist societies are in anyway kind generous or functional

is a dead duck

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If you think I've said anything in favour of socialist societies per se in this thread I'd like to invite you to quote it.