Thanks Chief 
England v Croatia Page 9
Is now not a good time to start singing the national anthem then?
Britain has so much wrong with it, both present (the chavs) and past (the killing), but I wouldn't swap it for anywhere else. Love this place!
Aaron to Frankie:
Eh? Are you honestly saying that because people elsewhere are suffering, we can't be proud to be British?
Frankie to Aaron:
Yes I am.
The so called civilised Western World has contributed and still contributes directly (by action or inaction) to other humans prematurely dying all over the World, so I do honestly say that pride for your country is totally misplaced.
You are well fed, housed, educated and not being raped and tortured so naturally you feel fine. But you don't DESERVE to feel fine. Nobody does. The fact that you're alright is only your good fortune to be born where you are free from that. But being proud of your country is totally misplaced in my view. Nor should you be grateful to your country either. These ideas of pride and gratitude are brainwashing of a most diabolical kind! 
<really>
Quote: ajp29 @ November 27, 2007, 4:11 PMThe reason that we remember the good points in our nation's history and not the bad points is because we feel the good points in our history are what shaped our attitudes and character.
For example I could never see myself owning a slave but could see myself fighting for my country against the Nazis. My point is that most modern Brits relate to past glories and not past evils because they cannot comprehend carrying out those past evils. Therefore its perfectly fine to take pride in your histroy as it reflects on you. You may see this as having a selective memory but its true in my eyes and is why we shouldn't go around apologising for historic events.
You may not see yourself owning a slave but the country you are proud of still supports slavery by it's actions or inaction. If you feel you don't need to apologise for past evils, how about apologising for the current ones then? Are you up for that? Or would you rather read your comic and have a Curlywurly? 
Dibs on Fantastic Four.
Quote: Aaron @ November 27, 2007, 3:55 PMNo, I said that they're not always directly linked, not that they are seldom related.
Anyway, let's drop that particular thread of the discussion now, as it's getting us nowhere.
In regards to the origins of the word, whilst that may be true, I think it's one of those terms whose exact meaning and interpretation has diversified with time. Like I said in a previous post, I - and indeed many I know - love the landscape and wildlife we have in this country. Whilst those may not be strictly unique to us, I would definitely consider them to be constituent to my patriotism. Even going back and sticking rigidly to the father-state origin, that doesn't necessarily encompass anything political or external, does it? Without going and reading through previous posts, I think one of Frankie's arguments against British patriotism was regarding things like the slave trade, and so any points along those lines would become defunct, no?
Your first point: I knew you would say that, you incorrigible smart-arse! I drew the inference that you thought patriotism and pride were seldom related from your comments:
Quote: Aaron @ November 23, 2007, 8:29 PM((QUOTE: FRANKIE: Mistakes of the past are of course TOTALLY relevant to how we should feel now.))
Really depends on how you're defining the "pride" which you're talking about.
((QUOTE: FRANKIE: Patriotism and pride ALWAYS but ALWAYS go together hand in glove, have you not noticed that?))
Aside from the above, not in my experience. But then maybe I've come across a more open-minded, nicer, fairer, and generally wider range of people than you.
I don't think that's too far-fetched from what you've said there. You said that with one exception, pride and patriotism do not go hand-in-hand, in your experience of a relatively wide range of people. Frankly, saying now that you only said "that they're not always directly linked" seems a bit of a fudge. Patriotism is a many-tentacled notion, and the few citable aspects of patriotism that might not involve pride are not the full definition (as you said, they would be constituents). In short: if it don't involve pride, it ain't patriotism. You need to qualify your use of the word 'patriotism' or choose a different word entirely - that's its definition:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=58085&dict=CALD
I mentioned the etymology of the word in order that people could have a better understanding of it (an ironic parallel with the history of one's country, perhaps). Although Aaron has decided to 'drop' this line of debate, frankly, I'm correct and there isn't any debate. As I said, it's like claiming cheese doesn't always involve milk. That's part of the definition of the word!
Quote: Aaron @ November 27, 2007, 3:55 PMEven going back and sticking rigidly to the father-state origin, that doesn't necessarily encompass anything political or external, does it?
This is a muddled argument because the etymology of the word does not equate to the definition. But as you rail against less 'open-minded' people, I am surprised to see such a closed-minded view. A country is inherently linked to its politics, not just, say, its geography. If I say to you "China", what is brought to your mind? Just the geography? Or maybe other things too? Patriotism can also apply to smaller regions. How about if I said "Hiroshima"? If your take on patriotism doesn't include such considerations, then either you are using the wrong word, or you are in fact very closed-minded.
Now, that aside, how you qualify such considerations is up to the individual. Let me get this straight: I don't agree with Mr Rage. See my earlier post. I am reasonably patriotic. If I decide I want to live somewhere else (e.g. France) I will be patriotic about my new residence. But my - yes, pride - of the various "England/United Kingdom/Europe" packages is tempered with other considerations. I'm not especially patriotic. Would I 'die' for my country? Probably not. It depends what was at stake. And it depends on what your definition of 'country' is in this context. This is the crux of the matter: in this context 'country' is surely far-reaching and encompasses 'history, values, way of life, language, architecture, landscape', amongst many other things. The bad and the good, qualified accordingly.
This is all reduced into the very powerful signifier of the flag - and this is of course why people get so angry when other people decide to burn their flag. The signifier represents the signified - it reduces all these associations to a mental shorthand. In this sense, it can become quite personal. Perhaps you see different things represented by the signifier of the flag. This has been proven to be the case with the word 'patriotism', a signifier in itself. But, then, I could associate the word 'eggs' with duvets or castles or hope. It doesn't make it correct! Patriotism is a far-reaching term that should not be reduced, and whose many aspects cannot be dismissed with a careless 'bollocks'!
All this interesting debate on an England vs. Croatia thread! Pff.
I want to hear David Beckham's view.
I think 4-5-1 was always a negative tactic, and it reaped appropriate reward. The fact that they played more like 7-0-3 in the first half is another issue. The biggest problem was a terribly English arrogance that they would easily deal with Croatia anyway - this being the Croatia who beat them 2-0 in the away game; the Croatia who have played far more attractive football in recent major finals than England have ever done; and the Croatia who are ranked higher than England in FIFA's world rankings. God knows what it would be like if we were in the South American qualifying zone, but I suspect we'd always bank on beating Argentina and Brazil.
Quote: Frankie Rage @ November 27, 2007, 12:04 PM1. You are responsible for what your ancestors did to the extent that, for example, you (or your Government) should give back "The Elgin Marbles" (for example)
2. That is exactly my point, and being British is nothing to be proud of either!!! Just because others have raped, pillaged and razed doesn't excuse the British doing it/having done it!
OK then.
I am very sorry for what my great great great great great great great great great great great great grandparents did.
Happy now?
James: Certainly some fair points, many of which I agree with. However, I can't help but feel that most of the points that I was trying to make have been lost along the way, probably due to my own bad phraseology. So in short, I'll refer back to earlier posts of Adam, Mark, and the first couple by Chappers, who've summed up far more clearly and succinctly what I was trying to get at.
(And on the China question, in all bluntness, I can honestly say that politics only came to my mind because it seemed that that's what you were infering, and even then it was by quite a way the last thing I thought of.)
Quote: Frankie Rage @ November 27, 2007, 6:17 PMYou may not see yourself owning a slave but the country you are proud of still supports slavery by it's actions or inaction. If you feel you don't need to apologise for past evils, how about apologising for the current ones then? Are you up for that? Or would you rather read your comic and have a Curlywurly?
Frankie darling I don't give a damn 
I would try to put right the evils of the world if I was in power but only through trade, diplomacy and example. Not by military force which should ultimate be a defensive not an interventionist force. Unless the shit really hits the fan.
Quote: Frankie Rage @ November 27, 2007, 6:17 PMAaron to Frankie:
Eh? Are you honestly saying that because people elsewhere are suffering, we can't be proud to be British?Frankie to Aaron:
Yes I am.The so called civilised Western World has contributed and still contributes directly (by action or inaction) to other humans prematurely dying all over the World, so I do honestly say that pride for your country is totally misplaced.
You are well fed, housed, educated and not being raped and tortured so naturally you feel fine. But you don't DESERVE to feel fine. Nobody does. The fact that you're alright is only your good fortune to be born where you are free from that. But being proud of your country is totally misplaced in my view. Nor should you be grateful to your country either. These ideas of pride and gratitude are brainwashing of a most diabolical kind!
You may not see yourself owning a slave but the country you are proud of still supports slavery by it's actions or inaction. If you feel you don't need to apologise for past evils, how about apologising for the current ones then? Are you up for that? Or would you rather read your comic and have a Curlywurly?
Christ The Rage, that's a side to you I aint seen before. Excellent. Love it. Great to hear someone talking a bit of sence.It might not directly be comedy but it's so easily adapted [ Mark Thomas ].
I heard George Galloway recently on Question Time. Now I know he probably is up to his neck in it , but I do like what he says. One , obviously landed Tory Middle aged guy was talking about us having to go into Iran if they did take our threats seriously. George simply said, " So you have your tin hat ready do you, or are you willing to let your son go and fight ? . No, what you want is for working class people to send their sons into war to die"
Classic stuff
But as I say The Rage, good stuff.
Just on the pouint of pride in our country. I'm quite proud of being English, but mainly on artistic and cultural grounds. We do have a great history when it comes to artists, ranging from Shakespeare through to Eric Morcambe. I'm also proud of what we did in the war. I'm also proud of other things, but I can't be bothered listing them. This isn't a Billy Joel song.
Quote: Kent Pete @ November 28, 2007, 1:16 AMI heard George Galloway recently on Question Time. Now I know he probably is up to his neck in it , but I do like what he says.
There you go, voiding anything else you say for the rest of the year!
Quote: chipolata @ November 28, 2007, 10:04 AMI'm also proud of other things, but I can't be bothered listing them. This isn't a Billy Joel song.
I'm proud to be English but that doesn't mean I'm proud of those shaven-headed tattooed twats with staffordshire bull terriers.
Quote: David Chapman @ November 28, 2007, 12:04 AMOK then.
I am very sorry for what my great great great great great great great great great great great great grandparents did.
Happy now?
I am a happy little person ..always! (mostly..)
Happy with the state of the this nation/world - NO! 
Quote: ajp29 @ November 28, 2007, 12:47 AMFrankie darling I don't give a damn
I would try to put right the evils of the world if I was in power but only through trade, diplomacy and example. Not by military force which should ultimate be a defensive not an interventionist force. Unless the shit really hits the fan.
Well, fair dos!
WHEN "the shit really hits the fan" (near you) I'll get them to give you a nudge!
For a helluva lot of people, the brown stuff is already flying thick and fast!
Quote: Kent Pete @ November 28, 2007, 1:16 AMChrist The Rage, that's a side to you I aint seen before. Excellent. Love it. Great to hear someone talking a bit of sence.It might not directly be comedy but it's so easily adapted ( Mark Thomas ).
I heard George Galloway recently on Question Time. Now I know he probably is up to his neck in it , but I do like what he says. One , obviously landed Tory Middle aged guy was talking about us having to go into Iran if they did take our threats seriously. George simply said, " So you have your tin hat ready do you, or are you willing to let your son go and fight ? . No, what you want is for working class people to send their sons into war to die"
Classic stuff
But as I say The Rage, good stuff.
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It's getting better (in small ways) people are now questioning so called authority in a positive way. The way that the banks are now having to take the threat of their customers wanting a fair deal seriously and in court, etc.
This idea that we unable to solve problems abroad WITHOUT (I said without) military action is, of course, another lot of nonsense from a wishy-washy and worn out system of government of democracy by representation, which clearly doesn't WANT to solve problems, nor does it CARE about problems ANYWHERE except it's own back yard. And even then, only when it personally affects them and their position of comfort and power.
The whole World goverment is morally bankrupt and inept as witnessed by both action and inaction every day of the week.