I wonder if Mourinho will have a change of heart and have a go. He's kicking his heels, must be down to his last £50 million or so by now too..
England v Croatia Page 8
Quote: Frankie Rage @ November 23, 2007, 5:14 PMMistakes of the past are of course TOTALLY relevant to how we should feel now.
Look at any of the current problem areas in the World today and then look at their history. If you actually know what has happended in the past, actually care about anything at all and you have a brain cell or two available, then that would affect the way you feel now.
Now that is total bollocks!
Am I, or is anyone alive, responsible for what our ancesters did? Only if we were Doctor Who.
Quote: Cinnamon @ November 23, 2007, 11:44 AMIf your argument is correct then why should the glories of the past have any effect on how people feel now? If British citizens are proud of their national heritage then they surely must be ashamed of much of it. Britain has built a few castles and won a few wars in its time but it has also been responsible for slavery and imperialism on a vast scale.
Didn't the Romans (Italians) have slaves well before us and invade the known world.
What the Arab slave traders? What about the Vikings?
Quote: jacparov @ November 23, 2007, 2:11 PMthere you go with the LOTR stuff again, you're a fan really aren't you!
See, I'm so little of a fan that I had to re-read my own post to try and work out what you were on about there!
Quote: Frankie Rage @ November 23, 2007, 5:14 PMMistakes of the past are of course TOTALLY relevant to how we should feel now.
Really depends on how you're defining the "pride" which you're talking about.
Quote: Frankie Rage @ November 23, 2007, 5:14 PMPatriotism and pride ALWAYS but ALWAYS go together hand in glove, have you not noticed that?
Aside from the above, not in my experience. But then maybe I've come across a more open-minded, nicer, fairer, and generally wider range of people than you. 
Quote: Frankie Rage @ November 23, 2007, 5:14 PMAs you don't want to even start on the argument that you shouldn't be proud of something you have no control over, I must assume you have no opinion worth bothering with!
It's your opinion on the subject that's not worth bothering with. 
Quote: Frankie Rage @ November 23, 2007, 5:14 PMThere are literally millions of people in the World whose very existence is at risk everyday of their lives and we are 'proud to British'...
Eh? Are you honestly saying that because people elsewhere are suffering, we can't be proud to be British? If so, how can you possibly have the nerve to eat your dinner tonight when there are poor kiddies in Africa starving to death, you heartless bastard?! 
Pshaw! 
Oh, and what Chappers said.
I was at a concert during it! The support was saying "Damn Croations!" while his bassist was left to say "Sorry if anyone HERE is Croation..." sheepishly
So England drew Croatia again - I call conspiracy. Croatia are quickly becoming one of those nations
Germany, Brasil, Argentina, Northern Ireland
Mind you, The Tartan Army were gubbed 6-0 last time out against Holland...
So Michael Owen said none of the Croatian players would get into England's team.
No - because they're bloody Croatians!
Quote: Aaron @ November 23, 2007, 8:29 PMReally depends on how you're defining the "pride" which you're talking about.
Aside from the above, not in my experience. But then maybe I've come across a more open-minded, nicer, fairer, and generally wider range of people than you.
It's your opinion on the subject that's not worth bothering with.
Eh? Are you honestly saying that because people elsewhere are suffering, we can't be proud to be British? If so, how can you possibly have the nerve to eat your dinner tonight when there are poor kiddies in Africa starving to death, you heartless bastard?!
Pshaw!
Oh, and what Chappers said.
Well, that is a surely a very smug and self-satisfied response which is exactly what I have come to expect from you!
If you really are proud to be British then you are as naieve as you are arrogant ... which is "quite naieve" on the richter scale of naievety!
Quote: David Chapman @ November 23, 2007, 8:07 PMNow that is total bollocks!
Am I, or is anyone alive, responsible for what our ancesters did? Only if we were Doctor Who.
Didn't the Romans (Italians) have slaves well before us and invade the known world.
What the Arab slave traders? What about the Vikings?
1. You are responsible for what your ancestors did to the extent that, for example, you (or your Government) should give back "The Elgin Marbles" (for example)
2. That is exactly my point, and being British is nothing to be proud of either!!! Just because others have raped, pillaged and razed doesn't excuse the British doing it/having done it!
Irony? Anyone?
I'm steering a middle line here (as is my usual). I think the idea of shame or pride in the past is deflecting attention from a real issue in our present.
Re: Slavery, while we did play a part (as have all nations and peoples at some point), we can be proud as Brits for being at the forefront of the anti-slavery campaigns, both in the past and the present. Yes, we did wrong but we rectified it and helped spread abolition throughout the world. This is an episode in history. Some of us will feel pride in it, some will find it despicable depending upon which part of that process we choose to focus on.
The fact that people complain about our slave trading past or herald our great abolitionists and then (in many cases) close their eyes to the present economic slavery of the world is bewildering. Our individual spending patterns impact on people around the world. Yes, Fair Trade costs more but that's because we're paying a fair price, not ripping off a farmer to save ourselves cash.
But because those impacts now occur in countries far away, rather than in sugar and cotton plantations in the 'civilised' West, it seems to be more palatable to our modern minds. However, chains of debt are still as constricting as chains of steel, and (more worryingly) have a global reach. Poverty is still as an effective killer as hard labour in a cotton field.
Why do we focus on past injustice when there is a present injustice that needs to be sorted? That's the true source of shame for this generation of Brits, not our past.
Quote: Aaron @ November 23, 2007, 8:29 PMReally depends on how you're defining the "pride" which you're talking about.
Aside from the above, not in my experience. But then maybe I've come across a more open-minded, nicer, fairer, and generally wider range of people than you.
It's your opinion on the subject that's not worth bothering with.
Eh? Are you honestly saying that because people elsewhere are suffering, we can't be proud to be British? If so, how can you possibly have the nerve to eat your dinner tonight when there are poor kiddies in Africa starving to death, you heartless bastard?!Pshaw!
Oh, and what Chappers said.
I'm not entirely sure this debate is considered enough. I must admit to being completely puzzled at Aaron's assertion that pride and patriotism seldom have anything to do with each other - and that to believe so presumably makes you in some way nasty/closed-minded/unfair, albeit in relative terms.
I think Frankie Rage's point is that because our nationality is essentially arbitrary, and patriotism has inherent pride bound with it, patriotism makes no sense: why be proud of a country whose achievements/ideals/systems are arbitrarily assigned to you? (I.e. you never had, and probably will never have, any real control over it.)
If patriotism is pride by association (just like the pride one might feel if a family member passes their driving test, for instance - you had no control over the actual test, but your association with the person makes you feel proud) then patriotism is pride by an association that is misplaced due to the arbitrary nature of being born into any particular country.
Now, I do not believe this argument is wholly true, as presumably one's ancestors often had a hand in one's country's past (or at least immediate past). This is a sort of secondary pride, further reinforced by present conditions and belief systems of the country (if you happen to believe in them). This validates patriotism to some extent as being more than 'arbitrary', although one could argue that the association is an invalid one.
Look at the Americans. I would say they're one of the most patriotic people on the planet. They're proud of their history and their forefathers, who struck out and forged 'The American Dream'. Compare with the Germans, who are on rather a low patriotic ebb after the Nazi regime. This directly and intrinsically links patriotism with the past. There are no two ways about it.
If you think of the etymology of "patriotism" you will recall "pater"=father, "otes"=state/condition. I.e. supporter of one's fatherland. The very use of the term 'father' suggests that the term is bound up with a consideration of history.
Now, I'm unsure how to dispute that patriotism and pride aren't linked. I can only suggest looking the term 'patriotism' up. It's like saying cheese and milk aren't linked.
(From Wikipedia)
Patriotism denotes positive and supportive attitudes to a 'fatherland' (Latin patria < Greek patris, πατρίς, by individuals and groups. The 'fatherland' (or 'motherland') can be a region or a city, but patriotism usually applies to a nation and/or a nation-state. Patriotism covers such attitudes as: pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation.
**
(Clearly this 'pride in its achievements and culture' further reiterates how patriotism can be forged in the past.)
if someone has battered someone else then surely they should get to keep their stuff unless a grown up makes them give it back.
Quote: James Williams @ November 27, 2007, 3:22 PMI must admit to being completely puzzled at Aaron's assertion that pride and patriotism seldom have anything to do with each other
No, I said that they're not always directly linked, not that they are seldom related.
Anyway, let's drop that particular thread of the discussion now, as it's getting us nowhere.
In regards to the origins of the word, whilst that may be true, I think it's one of those terms whose exact meaning and interpretation has diversified with time. Like I said in a previous post, I - and indeed many I know - love the landscape and wildlife we have in this country. Whilst those may not be strictly unique to us, I would definitely consider them to be constituent to my patriotism. Even going back and sticking rigidly to the father-state origin, that doesn't necessarily encompass anything political or external, does it? Without going and reading through previous posts, I think one of Frankie's arguments against British patriotism was regarding things like the slave trade, and so any points along those lines would become defunct, no?
The reason that we remember the good points in our nation's history and not the bad points is because we feel the good points in our history are what shaped our attitudes and character.
For example I could never see myself owning a slave but could see myself fighting for my country against the Nazis. My point is that most modern Brits relate to past glories and not past evils because they cannot comprehend carrying out those past evils. Therefore its perfectly fine to take pride in your histroy as it reflects on you. You may see this as having a selective memory but its true in my eyes and is why we shouldn't go around apologising for historic events.
Aha, here we go. Adam is spot on, and illustrates many of my points perfectly.
But probably best not to get into a discussion of whether or not we should be apologising for history!