Race is a term used to refer to a common ancestry, apparent in he dominance of traits such as hair colour, eye colour, features, build and skintone; a shared language and culture are commonly used as proxies, because of genetic variation, inherent or introduced. The Irish, Welsh and English have a different genetic and cultural heritage (the Scots are trickier as they are a bit more mongrel).
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ June 14 2010, 12:43 AM BSTThere's a difference between racist material and material about race.
Racist: "What do you call one black man at the bottom of the river? A good start." (Implies an underlying truth that white people want black people dead.)
Race: "I love black people but I hate niggers..." (Implies an underlying truth that black people hate the bad reputation they get from a subsection of idiot black people)
The 'Niggas have got to go!' routine from Rock is on the surface not racist. It is mostly classist. There is much mocking of the 'Nigga' for his low aspirations and ignorance as opposed to the 'Black Person's' upwardly mobile tendencies. "Niggas are singing welfare carols now etc. Niggas love not knowing shit'. But it would be fully possible to put together a high-level polemic about how Rock's rebranding of standard white middle-class aspirations as 'Black' and his rejection of historical inequality of opportunity amongst blacks as self imposed by' Niggas' is unconsciously informed by white racism.
Quote: Timbo @ June 14 2010, 6:56 PM BSTI always assumed that Welsh or ginger were used as the subject of jokes simply because no-one could be so obtuse as to believe that any serious malice was intended.
Much the same thing was thought by people sixty years ago about black people, hence the expression 'nigger brown' and the novel 'ten little niggers' - written by a liberal-minded woman who spent much of her life in Africa and the middle East studying the ancestry of the indigenous populations.
This is the common complaint about racist language and behaviour by people who seek to correct it - that the people doing it are hardly aware they are doing it.
Quote: chipolata @ June 14 2010, 7:06 PM BSTI think we're getting hung up on definitions.
I guess so.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ June 14 2010, 7:16 PM BSTThe 'Niggas have got to go!' routine from Rock is on the surface not racist. It is mostly classist. There is much mocking of the 'Nigga' for his low aspirations and ignorance as opposed to the 'Black Person's' upwardly mobile tendencies. "Niggas are singing welfare carols now etc. Niggas love not knowing shit'. But it would be fully possible to put together a high-level polemic about how Rock's rebranding of standard white middle-class aspirations as 'Black' and his rejection of historical inequality of opportunity amongst blacks as self imposed by' Niggas' is unconsciously informed by white racism.
Or it could be a reaction against the misplaced racial solidarity that finds excuses for unacceptable behaviour, and in doing so feeds the prejudice that "they are all alike".
Much the same thing was thought by people sixty years ago about black people, hence the expression 'nigger brown' and the novel 'ten little niggers' - written by a liberal-minded woman who spent much of her life in Africa and the middle East studying the ancestry of the indigenous populations.
This is the common complaint about racist language and behaviour by people who seek to correct it - that the people doing it are hardly aware they are doing it.
I do not think that they are analogueous at all - there is no recent history of legal or economic discrimination against taffs or gingers and no latent hostility to be awakened. Which is why they are chosen as innocuous targets by people who have a much more heightened awareness of these issues, and a lot less ingrained prejudice, than Edwardian liberals. Poking fun at the Welsh or the strawberry blonde may be lazy, tiresome and weak, but it is not prejudiced.
Racism has nothing to do with race.
Quote: Timbo @ June 14 2010, 7:48 PM BSTOr it could be a reaction against the misplaced racial solidarity that finds excuses for unacceptable behaviour, and in doing so feeds the prejudice that "they are all alike".
I do not think that they are analogueous at all - there is no recent history of legal or economic discrimination against taffs or gingers and no latent hostility to be awakened. Which is why they are chosen as innocuous targets by people who have a much more heightened awareness of these issues, and a lot less ingrained prejudice, than Edwardian liberals. Poking fun at the Welsh or the strawberry blonde may be lazy, tiresome and weak, but it is not prejudiced.
Presumably you have neither ginger hair nor are Welsh.
I personally believe that everybody is racist and therefore racism does not exist, but I am playing devil's advocate in this case.
Ben Elton (or Richard Curtis) would not have substituted Jewish for Welsh in that Blackadder joke because they would have found it offensive themselves. Similarly they would not have used Jamaican or Pakistani or any number of other ethnic and racial definitions as they would have expected to be censured. Using Welsh identity is trouble free, because racism against the Welsh was then (and possibly still is) generally acceptable. They all live in caravans don't they. And f**k their sister - when the sheep get away. Tawdry and disappointing.
We all know that Elton turned out to be a less than positive ethical and political role model, but this was an early indication that some of us saw.
Wales is a place where certain activities take place.
Black isn't.
Joking about the Welsh f**king sheep or coal mining is only as racist as joking about Nigerians being internet scammers, ie not at all.
Since the surge to be all-embracing in the late 1980s, people seemed to get confused very quickly with the difference between actual Racism EG: Being hostile to other cultures/religions and the more gentle, tongue-in-cheek, art of Stereotyping EG: Using a globally recognised version of a particular group for comic purposes only, No offence is normally intended or taken.
You guys are killing me... Love to hear you explaining your 'globally recognised comic stereotyping' to the equal opportunities commission.
Quote: Godot Taxis @ June 15 2010, 1:44 AM BSTYou guys are killing me... Love to hear you explaining your 'globally recognised comic stereotyping' to the equal opportunities commission.
They are quite a tough audience.
Quote: Timbo @ June 15 2010, 2:41 AM BSTThey are quite a tough audience.
I think it was, and remains, a straightforward argument. Is the target of your gag weaker or stronger than you? Are you tapping into your (and the audience's) prejudices and fears, or are you saying something new about the subject?
Chris Rock's routines, as argued very eloquently by Godot Taxis, can be seen as racist, but I'd say the underlying result of those routines is that a white audience gains an insight into a community that forces them to confront their prejudices about black people all being the same.
By the way, slightly off topic I realise, but while this is a subject that quite rightly vexes all working comics, no one is even beginning to address the astonishing level of misogyny on the circuit.
Who's this terrible Miss Ogeny? Sounds like a Russian, women standup and there's far too many of them.
Take my wife....
Quote: Anorak @ June 15 2010, 9:58 AM BST... as argued very eloquently by Godot Taxis...
I didn't ask him to say this.
Quote: sootyj @ June 15 2010, 4:50 PM BSTTake my wife....
I bought my wife a waterbed. Her side froze.
Quote: Kevin Murphy @ June 15 2010, 12:08 AM BSTJoking about the Welsh f**king sheep
I know somebody at Lampeter University who got into serious trouble for making that joke in a lecture. He was accused of being racist.
Quote: chipolata @ June 15 2010, 5:00 PM BSTI know somebody at Lampeter University who got into serious trouble for making that joke in a lecture. He was accused of being racist.
Why, was he shagging black sheep?