Ban the Burka? Page 20

Quote: sootyj @ May 5 2010, 11:41 AM BST

2 wrongs don't make a right. The next stage is to view his actions as spousal abuse and punish accordingly. Match that with more education and adovcacy for veiled women.

Our society has so very, very few expectations on it's citizens we need to stop feeling guilty about expecting women to be able to go out in public without wearing a sleeping bag or learn the national language.

Not should we feel a shred of guilt about punishing men who's view of women's rights never made it to the renaissance.

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I totally agree. But my point remains - banning the veil does nothing to address the actual issue.

Quote: sootyj @ May 5 2010, 11:41 AM BST

2 wrongs don't make a right. The next stage is to view his actions as spousal abuse and punish accordingly. Match that with more education and adovcacy for veiled women.

Our society has so very, very few expectations on it's citizens we need to stop feeling guilty about expecting women to be able to go out in public without wearing a sleeping bag or learn the national language.

Not should we feel a shred of guilt about punishing men who's view of women's rights never made it to the renaissance.

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Sooty, you're seemingly obsessed with this so-called "liberal guilt". I've no doubt it exists in some places, but you won't find it in this thread.

Quote: Kevin Murphy @ May 5 2010, 12:09 PM BST

Sooty, you're seemingly obsessed with this so-called "liberal guilt". I've no doubt it exists in some places, but you won't find it in this thread.

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In the same way you can be a racist conservative without saying you hate foreigns (merely concerned about immigration, Islam or poor langauge skills etc). You can have liberal guilt by saying you assume anyone who wears a Burqa has made a choice and we shouldn't jusge choices.

God I love always being right (if usually misunderstood).

Quote: sootyj @ May 5 2010, 12:14 PM BST

You can have liberal guilt by saying you assume anyone who wears a Burqa has made a choice and we shouldn't jusge choices.

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Nobody has said that. You're tilting at windmills feller.

It's been implied Mr Windmill implied strongly

Well, I'd like to state unequivocally that I have not implied as such, even if you have inferred it.

(due to your fascist guilt, no doubt

So hang on if you don't think the choice to wear a Bruqa is a free and independent one, are you suggesting tolerance for it being worn under sufferance?

Are there any bands writing songs about this issue? Apart from these women: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpH83Vi7b9E

Quote: sootyj @ May 5 2010, 12:35 PM BST

So hang on if you don't think the choice to wear a Bruqa is a free and independent one, are you suggesting tolerance for it being worn under sufferance?

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Hell no.

As I said towards the beginning of this thread: tackle the cause of oppression, not the symptom.

I'm in favour of government passing no laws banning private, non-harmful behaviour.

Wearing a hood is non-harmful.

Being forced to wear a hood is harmful.

^This

Although by 'non-harmful' I'd mean 'non-harmful to others' and by 'non-harmful to others' I don't count being offended as being harmed.

I'm a bit lost that's exactly what I've been saying.

And tackling the cause is a very long porocess. Sometimes you have to deal with the symptons now.

Quote: sootyj @ May 5 2010, 1:20 PM BST

And tackling the cause is a very long porocess. Sometimes you have to deal with the symptons now.

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Even if that makes it worse in the short term or gives the false impression that you've done something about the problem?

The woman who got fined for wearing the veil is now confined to her home - which means that all the veil ban has done is oppress her more. It hasn't changed the attitudes one jot, it just hides the problem away. It means that she now has no chance to encounter people with different viewpoints and perhaps make her realise how oppressed she is and maybe, just maybe do something about it, such as leave her idiot husband or speak out about the oppression in a country where she is much safer doing so.

Not that that would happen anyway, seeing as the attitude of most people would be, "Well I'm not going to interract with her if I can't see her face."

Helpful, eh?

Yes even if it makes things worse in the short time. The most important chnage is never easy.

The next stage is to treat this as spousal abuse and if needs be dissolve the marriage. Excessive tolerance is every bit as corrosive as excesive control.

In this country we're dealing with forced marriage and genital mutilation by the police/social services agressively taking an interest in what goes on on family holidays. Is this a bit racist and invasive and a violation of human rights? Yes,
Is it the right thing yes.

People are often too stupid to know whats in their best interests. Plenty of women opposed universal sufferage.

Quote: Kenneth @ May 5 2010, 12:41 PM BST

Are there any bands writing songs about this issue? Apart from these women: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpH83Vi7b9E

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Loved that. There were loads of other similar ones but I didn't look.

Quote: Afinkawan @ May 5 2010, 11:36 AM BST

I've just checked my pockets. No barcodes.

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I was referring to a loyalty card, credit card, oyster card, citizen card, driving licence etc that most of us have in their pocket. The card that holds electronic information that the state or related organisations or big business uses to track your likes, dislikes, drinking habits, whereabouts, travel patterns, wealth, criminal convictions etc.

Quote: Afinkawan @ May 5 2010, 11:36 AM BST

Which doesn't make it right...

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It isn't right. And I never said it was.

Quote: Afinkawan @ May 5 2010, 11:36 AM BST

And back on veils...

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824616-woman-fined-for-wearing-a-burka-to-post-office

Note the husband's comment - "Husband Ben Salah Braim, 36, said: 'We knew about the law and I know that it's not against my religion but now Amel will have to stay indoors. I can't have other men looking at her.'"

On a scale of 1 to 10, how much less oppressed do you think she feels now she can't wear the veil? Like I said - the veil isn't the issue, it's only a symptom.

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You're misunderstanding what a law does. Putting someone in prison doesn't stop them wanting to steal, it only stops them being able to steal. Laws don't alter people's intentions or desires, only their actions.

Quote: Kevin Murphy @ May 5 2010, 12:09 PM BST

Sooty, you're seemingly obsessed with this so-called "liberal guilt". I've no doubt it exists in some places, but you won't find it in this thread.

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This thread is made out of Liberal guilt.