The sleeves are expensive and not especially effective as compared to just having sking you can clean. It's a stupid bit of special pleading.
Where the needs of an obdurate minority are once again set over the greater good.
Ban the Burka? Page 10
Quote: sootyj @ May 2 2010, 1:07 AM BSTThe sleeves are expensive and not especially effective as compared to just having sking you can clean. It's a stupid bit of special pleading.
Now that's a good point.
Thank you, it's this culture of giving on the demands of faith groups that is malign on so many levels.
Leaving aside the health issues in this case. It mean the doctrinal orthodox voices get control of the public spaces and that crushes the other voices within said group.
Quote: sootyj @ May 1 2010, 11:18 PM BSTOne of the worst forms of opression one can commit is to see some one suffering and ignore their suffering.
As opposed to a third party deciding that someone is being oppressed, and forcing themselves in on that other person?
Quote: sootyj @ May 2 2010, 1:11 AM BSTThank you, it's this culture of giving on the demands of faith groups that is malign on so many levels
I must admit, you've got me on this one. There's no way in hell that NHS money should be spent on silly religious beliefs, of any faith.
I've signed petitions against taxpayers funding NHS chaplains before, and paying for modesty garmets for Muslim doctors is no different. It's bullshit that should be stopped.
I still think you're wrong about the burkas though 
Quote: PhQnix @ May 1 2010, 11:31 PM BSTDoes that make me an outsider? I have no Christian tradition in me at all.
You work/study right through December and January with no acknowledgement of 'Christmas' and 'New Year' then?
Quote: sootyj @ May 2 2010, 12:39 AM BSTWhat the full face gear? That's youth rebellion, which is the egg you always have to crack when making a freedom omlette.
Not the full-on mesh thing. But otherwise, yes. And not all 'youth'; a couple into their mid-/late-20s at least.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 1 2010, 11:45 PM BSTNot if you're non-Muslim I wouldn't really say, no.
If you're a Muslim I say it does - We crusaded against the Muslims - that's what makes them traditional outsiders (and enemies), from a faith perspective. But because Muslims cannot separate faith from culture, they are still natural outsiders here.
You've bought into some dodgy ideas at some point, Alfred. You haven't got a clue if I'm a Muslim or not. It shouldn't be the deciding factor over whether I'm an 'outsider' or an 'insider'.
Quote: Aaron @ May 2 2010, 1:31 AM BSTYou work/study right through December and January with no acknowledgement of 'Christmas' and 'New Year' then?
Fine. Not 'no Christian tradition'. But Alfred's arguments are irritating me. I don't see how anyone can decide an entire group is 'inside' or 'outside' a culture or society.
I just hate any kind of 'one of us/one of them' rhetoric. It's thick.
Well really it's about integrating. If someone comes here to live and brings their own culture with them, refusing to assimilate into our existing culture, then I for one am going to call them an outsider, whether it irritates them, you or anyone else.
That we are made to feel fashionably guilty thsese days by our hideously liberal media and govt for calling those who don't try and fit in as outsiders, or 'not one of us' is a major factor why nationalist patriot groups like the BNP are on the rise.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 2 2010, 2:05 AM BSTThat we are made to feel fashionably guilty thsese days by our hideously liberal media and govt for calling those who don't try and fit in as outsiders, or 'not one of us' is a major factor why nationalist patriot groups like the BNP are on the rise.
Correct.
This thread has got up to ten pages pretty quickly but having just caught up with it I'm disappointed by how dull it all is.
I'm also annoyed to my usual extent by the "us" and "them" language some people use, but then I am part of a woolly gang of liberals and "we" don't like "you" doing that sort of thing.
Quote: Aaron @ May 2 2010, 1:31 AM BSTYou work/study right through December and January with no acknowledgement of 'Christmas' and 'New Year' then?
Not the full-on mesh thing. But otherwise, yes. And not all 'youth'; a couple into their mid-/late-20s at least.
Head scarves and chaddors really aren't such a biggy for me. But I feel at a school age should be worked out as a sensible sort of uniform/package something that happens at many schools already.
It's the you can't even see my face stuff that is insidious. A huge amount of communication is visual and this short circuits it.
Quote: Badge @ May 2 2010, 5:23 AM BSTThis thread has got up to ten pages pretty quickly but having just caught up with it I'm disappointed by how dull it all is.
I'm also annoyed to my usual extent by the "us" and "them" language some people use, but then I am part of a woolly gang of liberals and "we" don't like "you" doing that sort of thing.
Youze a foreign and socialiptic as well probably.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 2 2010, 2:05 AM BSTWell really it's about integrating. If someone comes here to live and brings their own culture with them, refusing to assimilate into our existing culture, then I for one am going to call them an outsider, whether it irritates them, you or anyone else.
That we are made to feel fashionably guilty thsese days by our hideously liberal media and govt for calling those who don't try and fit in as outsiders, or 'not one of us' is a major factor why nationalist patriot groups like the BNP are on the rise.
Alfred my great grandparents brought their own culture and we managed to keep most of it and integrate. It isn't so hard. I do think one of the real rpoblems is the MCGB is such a dreadful institution.
In the Jewish community we returned to the UK in the 18th century under a "patent of tolerance." e.g. we weren't all that welcome. So our external facing institutions like the chief Rabbi (an ambassador essentially), board of deputies (that represent individual communities and don't instruct them) are designed to help us fit in and be part of secular/christian society.
The Muslim institutions are by and large fractious, lead by the more intolerant and fractious members of their own community and let them down.
Quote: Aaron @ May 2 2010, 1:16 AM BSTAs opposed to a third party deciding that someone is being oppressed, and forcing themselves in on that other person?
Well yes it's why we expect social services to ensure all kids get a good education what ever their parents beliefs. Or kids shouldn't make themselves vulnerable to adults on line.
Sometimes it's about making a judgement. Or else we allow society to disintegrate into self contained bubbles.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 2 2010, 2:05 AM BSTWell really it's about integrating. If someone comes here to live and brings their own culture with them, refusing to assimilate into our existing culture, then I for one am going to call them an outsider, whether it irritates them, you or anyone else.
I don't disagree with you that people should be looked upon unfavourably for not assimilating to the bare minimum into our culture - violent extremism should not be tolerated in any community. But you're pointing at one or two extremists and blacklisting an entire community. That's just wrong.
Not every single Muslim has arrived on these shores trying to impose an Islamic way of life on everybody here, no matter how paranoid you may be. The majority of them are peaceful, tolerant people with no qualms about living in a multicultural society.
There are one or two extremists but don't try and pretend that radicalism is a problem only limited to one subsection of British society. It's a problem in all communities. There are white people who hold views which I find disgusting and there are Muslims who hold views I find disgusting. What's important is that you judge on a person-to-person basis.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ May 2 2010, 2:05 AM BSTThat we are made to feel fashionably guilty thsese days by our hideously liberal media and govt for calling those who don't try and fit in as outsiders, or 'not one of us' is a major factor why nationalist patriot groups like the BNP are on the rise.
Yes, I'm such a trendy f**ker with all of my tolerance and woolly views about not damning an entire religion.
The BNP deserves the same critical, discerning respect as Islam. They're views on Labor's obsession with the middle classes and abandoning of communities and social housing are wholly valid. As has much of their critique of immigration (as a globalist tool to undermining many workers rights).
Not all BNP members are ignorant, fascist, criminals.
In the same way Islamic emphasis on communal cohesion, responsibility and temparance should be more than respected. Islamic views on usury/debt could get us out of this current recession.
Quote: PhQnix @ May 2 2010, 9:26 AM BSTThere are one or two extremists but don't try and pretend that radicalism is a problem only limited to one subsection of British society.
Well it's thousands and growing in numbers. Where they can't raise membership in their own community they are spreading into others like Richard Reed and that bloke from Bristol.
Quote: PhQnix @ May 2 2010, 9:26 AM BSTThere are white people who hold views which I find disgusting and there are Muslims who hold views I find disgusting. What's important is that you judge on a person-to-person basis.
Hmm Jewish fundamentalists tend to wear amusing outfits and are fussy about where they eat. Johos and Baptists may be a nuisance knocking on your door but generally neither are in the least bit violent.
And frankly I challenge you to start a fight with a budhist.
We're all the same equivocation is immature bullshit.
And the BNP is a secular political party.
Woohoo 20,000 posts being a disagreeable arse!
Quote: sootyj @ May 1 2010, 10:50 PM BSTWhich one?
Meaning where have I lived that was Muslim majority country? Egypt, Libya, Malaysia and Indonesia.
Quote: sootyj @ May 1 2010, 10:50 PM BSTI worked with a girl who was an Indonesian Christian and it was a damn site less comfortable than being a muslim in the UK.
I'll guess she was ethnic Chinese Indonesian and therefore suffered discrimination because of her race. The Javanese have traditionally treated the ethnic Chinese like crap.
It was her treatment as a Christian that stuck with her. I think she put it elegantly,
"The government was concerned about religious tension, they felt it would be easier if we were all muslims."
N.B. the Arab countries are all "Arabist" Muslim countries which lock up political fundamentalists way more often than the West.