Quote: DaButt @ April 25 2010, 8:30 PM BSTYeah, I can barely contain my excitement about their barely contained sexuality ...
Batman really has gone downhill.
http://www.rathergood.co.uk/HungryHungryGypos
Don't know if this has anything to do with politics but it does or something.
Quote: sootyj @ April 25 2010, 8:30 PM BSTBut would be pretty unworkable as a blanket ban.
Are they banning blankets as well now? What will that do to the OAP fuel allowance? They just don't think these things through.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ April 25 2010, 7:54 PM BSTBut we are massively tied up by European law now. Even when our weak govt does try to make a stand it gets overuled by Europe!
To be fair I do not think any objections under EU law have been raised to proposed bans on the burqua in France, Belgium and the Netherlands.
Quote: Timbo @ April 25 2010, 7:16 PM BSTAgree. The law should be a reflection of what society deems acceptable, You cannot have exceptions. I think it is outrageous that New Labour should have fudged the slaughterhouse regulations to put in a loophole for kosher and halal meat
Unfortunately, most major religions embody beliefs and promote practises which are contrary to the legal system; things like mysogeny, homophobia and cruelty. Really these religions should be banned.
Quote: Timbo @ April 25 2010, 10:51 PM BSTTo be fair I do not think any objections under EU law have been raised to proposed bans on the burqua in France, Belgium and the Netherlands.
There will be, the Human Rights Act will save them again, I don't see those bans happeneing, myself. Far less than that has already been blocked by it.
Unless the EU takes a strong stance against Islam with all its many unwestern practices then we are all just fodder to be walked over by them. I'm not condoning what the Serbs did to Muslims in Bosnia, BUT I can see why they were so angry and frustrated, and this is what we all we have to put up with unless a very strong stance is taken against their intolerant behaviour.
Muslims cause tension, resentment and anger in non Muslim countries because they expect the hosts to change their way of life to suit them. It should be the other way round! What happened in Bosnia should be a major warning for everyone. And yet Europe appeases them with the unfair Human Rights laws. They are walking all over the West and one day will be the dominant force here too. This is exactly what they want.
I wish people would remember there are strong modernist liberal voices in Islam.
I wish we had the sense to reach around the fundamentalists to these people and draw them towards us.
Saw an anti racism march poster in Brick Lane yesterday. Opposing all racists, BNP, IFE, EDL and Hizbu Tahir. When we can start viewing these fascists like we view the EDL (e.g. an embarassment to their community who need to be observed, won over and if need be arrested) we won't get far.
http://womm.leolincourt.com/amnesty-internationals-womens-officer-resigns
This for me is the real problem. The far left has given up being the voice of vvalid protest and has switched to dry humping any one even vaguely anti American.
The new slogan seems to be "If you're weak you're chich, if you're strong you're wrong."
They forget people like Mao were once peniless revoloutinaries.
Well there needs to be a lot more of these moderate Muslims actually speakng out, because I can't hear them. There are no where near enough of them. The Tories have picked one as their main spokeswoman on Muslim issues, a very clever move and she seems sensible, but will Muslim communities listen to her? Certainly the extremists won't. They will think she's not one of them.
The biggest problem is Muslim group leaders, like the head of the supposedly moderate Muslim Council of GB - he sets such a bad example, imo, he's whingy and whiny and is always complaining about how Muslims are treated, and has the cheek to criticise sexually dressed white females on TV. This is not what he should be doing, he is making all Muslims look like intolerant bigots who think that others around them should change to fit in with them! That is how most Brits I think now see most Muslims.
I'm not talking about terrorist bombers, I'm talking about the more general harm Islam itself does to our British culture - the two do not mix - they have not integrated into society, they have ghettoised themselves, they have remained absolutely indifferent to our culture, they have stubbornly defended their own practices which upset many non Muslims, and they do harbour an awful lot of members with rabid fundementalist views and massive grudges against their infidel hosts. Can it be any wonder that they as a group now are not trusted and generally not liked?
Moderate Muslims are never going to make much of an impact because they're not nearly as entertaining as one-eyed hook-handed nutballs. It's the loons that sell papers.
But proactively moderate Muslim leaders would be very entertaining to Muslims - if some of them actually got up in a Mosque and asked them all to adhere to their own country's cultural practices, to try and fit in more, to integrate in society and not to stand out with their silly veils, then I think there'd be riots. They just think they can carry on as they do and everyone else has to put up with it. That's not being moderate, that's being totally intransigent. They have to make an effort to fit in, surely one day ???
Well it's more complex. The integrated Muslims you don't really notice. One man shouting is louder than a 1000 saying nothing.
Religious representative groups have always been a problem. They need consensus to work, which means the liberals will compromise on most things. And the conservatives on very little. Hence groups like MCB are archly conservative but not oposed by liberal forces within their own communities.
A further problem has been the mutton headed attitude of the police, councils and governments in only dealing with these groups. This is exacerbated by groups like Hizbu Thair having got extremely good at speaking focus group.
And why shouldn't Muslims defend their own practices's? Temparance, avoidance of debt, community welfare are part of their mix. And as for being upset, it comes with ebing part of a free society. We can oppose intolerant babies, without throiwng out the religious bath water.
I can't say Muslims - moderate or extreme - are much of an issue for me. I'm much more concerned about something like anti-social behaviour and how we now have an entire generation of young people who behave like animals.
Both Conservative "big community" and Labor "Investors in communities" reflect a general desire for closer communities taking responsibility for them selves. If elements of the Muslim community are doing this we should be celebrating and following their example. The social disintegration Chip mentions is what happens when we allow society to dissipate into obsessive individualism.
Quote: sootyj @ April 26 2010, 9:08 AM BSTWell it's more complex. The integrated Muslims you don't really notice.
I'd say that I notice them more infact. when I see Asian Muslim guys walking along with a group of white guys, I really notice that. As I do with the odd few who wear England shirts.
And why shouldn't Muslims defend their own practices's? Temparance, avoidance of debt, community welfare are part of their mix.
Because the way they defend it usually entails criticising our western ways, it is this that our society finds most offencive. Okay, don't drink, but don't petend you have the moral high ground on it or make out it has moderated you as human beings because many of you are so drunk on the words of Allah.
Where is it you live? I notice Asians (who knows if they're Muslims) integrating cheerfully and hanging out where I live. Of course we also have a big mosque and the guys there don't mix (which isn't so good). An interesting thing for me has been doing Xmas does at work. Muslims won't go (as will many Christians (as they are usually down the pub and involve booze. It makes me wonder if our obsessive booziness is the problem, not their abstinence.
And alot of Muslims goto Mosque for the exact reason we used to goto the pub. To socialise around an area of mutual interest in the warm.
I think alot of it isn't religious. It's more tribal insularisim, people hang together because of race not faith.
And I partially blame political correct individual service funding for individual communities funding for this.
I agree with a lot of what Alfred said. I also agree with sooty that there are a lot of integrated, (relatively) liberal Muslims that we just don't really 'see'. (Difficult at times to identify them though, as I hate our drink and sport obsessed society just as much as I hate their oppressive faith-obsessive one. Equal opportunities snobbery, me.)
And I'm not yet convinced that the EDL are the 'bad guys'.
