that's the plaice
J26
Film Schools/Scriptwriting Courses Page 3
Quote: Marc P @ October 19 2009, 3:04 PM BSTThere is no such thing as a good reader, just good scipts.
Damn right - I read that as "scripts".
No I don't believe in courses. If you're good enough then you're good enough. If you're a bit shaky in some form then that will be ironed out by producer. If you have an original style/voice and can entertain and tell stories then you DO NOT NEED A COURSE.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 19 2009, 10:11 PM BSTIf you're a bit shaky in some form then that will be ironed out by producer.
Yeah. You get fired.
The idea that you shouldn't go on a course is, of course, clearly ridiculous. You don't have to necessarily - but a lot of people do and a lot of people benefit from them. The notion that your 'art' will be sullied by having people who know what they are talking about telling you how to do it better is also a bit silly. Craft means just that and ipso facto can be taught. It's just who is doing the teaching and to whom is the issue here.
Quote: Alfred J Kipper @ October 19 2009, 10:11 PM BSTNo I don't believe in courses. If you're good enough then you're good enough. If you're a bit shaky in some form then that will be ironed out by producer. If you have an original style/voice and can entertain and tell stories then you DO NOT NEED A COURSE.
What if you have loads of nice clothes and no where to wear them, is it okay then?
Quote: Dolly Dagger @ October 20 2009, 9:27 AM BSTWhat if you have loads of nice clothes and no where to wear them, is it okay then?
It depends if they are they ironed by the producer too.
I should have said I meant it more for uncontracted writers trying to get their first major work optioned or get a commission or something else on the back of it. I really can't think a producer (or a reader) would be daft enough to expect perfect form from an unknown writer who gives them something entertaining with good characters and good content, dialogue and all the rest of it. That's what writing courses can't teach you, they can only teach you that it's needed and maybe in what places it is needed most - they cannot instil in you a magic gift of creating that, that can only come from you (obviously). Personally, I wasted a whole year on BA writing course that taught me nothing I either didn't know or couldn't have found out from a couple of books at the most.
That's why I'm anti-courses, I think they are an expensive con, they get many believing they just have to do the course, get the certificate, and the world of screenwriting is their oyster. This is the utterest rubbish. (Have you seen the work of your tutors for example, on the screen or stage, I never did). The only thing that will get you into that competitive world of pro script writing is writing talent and perseverence (lots of both) and most importantly fresh and original ideas or characters. A couple of cheap writing guidebooks, some visual research (watching the telly) and a lot of practice is enough to get you soon writing with enough good form in your script, IMO. The rest is your ideas, your characters, your stories and your language - all the important stuff.
I'm sorry if this sounds a tad preachy or anti courses, but I really am anti them based on my experience and on countless stories I've heard of negative feedback, as I think Ronnie, was it, mentioned, that producers are known to tell unsolicited writers that they think they may be 'too coursed out' or trying to hard to folloow form, judging from their script, and what their writing needs is more freshness and a stronger personality. So that's several thousand quid down the plughole because you adhere to what you learnt in the course! I'd say better to be slightly wobblier in form but with bold ideas and style, than to be so tied to good form it makes your script look flat and artificial. IMO.
Alfred sounds like you had a bad experience. It comes down to some courses are good and some aren't. That there are way too many of them and a lot are proporting to offer something they can't deliver is wrong. But there are good courses and competition to get on them is fierce, so the people graduating are better placed to then go on and work in their chosen field sim,ply because of that. It's like making ten times the number of universities in the country it doesn;t make a person with a degree now ten times more likely to get a job, the same pecking order is in place and the top jobs will still as likely to go to graduates from the top universities as they ever did. A lot more people are getting shafted on their expectations now, is all, than ever were before and getting saddled with thousands and thousands of pounds of debt for the privilege. Thank you government.
Yes my course was bad, the college was bad, but after speaking to several others who attended apparently well thought of courses, I really can't think that any full time writing course except maybe at post grad level is really a good way into the business. It's time consuming, very expensive, doesn't teach you what you can't teach yourself, is practically useless for any other field of work, even teaching, and can often give students false hope, because as I said, they can't teach you talent. And as Ronnie mentioned, many are in danger of finding their manuscripts being easily spotted after leaving college, as being written by automatons with no real heart or personality. Craft is good, but learn the craft at home and save yourself a small fortune. I can't even see a cache to being a writing grad now, as the BBC for example no longer list that as an entry qualification to their burgeoning writing academies, I believe. Perhaps the Beeb saw that the courses weren't really producing good original writers, however well formatted they were?
Well I think that is true for any degree course really, in the arts anyway. What they do do, is to give you time I guess.
This quote is from Jon Williams and it pretty much sums up the category i9nto which courses and film schools fall;
'We have to go back to the Thatcher years - education is a market, students are the 'clients', give them what they want (surprise, surprise, pissing about with video cameras and watching films and soap operas). And you must go out and recruit more students, meet targets, tick boxes. Media/Film courses? Nothing more than a dirty great pyramid selling/'ponsey' scheme. More students at anyone time than there are media jobs in the whole country. Just about the only job going is....teaching film & media (so you must recruit more students).
Utterly stupid. If you don't do anything to create a market, that is.
Anyone who makes a short film is a hobbyist - there is no market. The lesson is - do not kid yourself, and do not allow the UKFC and the RSA's kid you that it isn't."
Yep. Well said. Same for writers. Have to agree with that and I went to film school too.
More enlightenment at articles/politics; www.pleasedsheep.com
I'm into courses.
Quote: vigo @ February 3 2010, 4:07 PM GMTAnyone who makes a short film is a hobbyist - there is no market. The lesson is - do not kid yourself, and do not allow the UKFC and the RSA's kid you that it isn't."
Yep. Well said. Same for writers. Have to agree with that and I went to film school too.
Bit harsh? Short films can lead onto a lot more.
I went on one course. The whole week was great right up to the last hour when we asked how to break into the industry. He basically told us the chances were nigh on impossible unless you know someone inside. Okay, not true but I know most of the class left, totally demoralised, and wishing he'd told them that titbit before they'd registered.
I'll be looking into a degree level screenwriting course later this year.
Re; Bit harsh? Short films can lead onto a lot more.
Sorry Dolly don't mean to be 'harsh' since I think Jon Williams arguments are infact very constructive and helpful to writers - (though being a writer is nevertheless a harsh business.)
This is not anti short film - which Jon Williams is not against - but about the way Government have created the short film/school/course culture re 'it leading on...'etc to fool people - relating specifically to THE MARKET the thing about the general 'short film culture' is that it has bedevilled (for want of a better word) the British - and British writers in particular - into taking their minds off the real issue, i.e.- the closing of the British market for film/television writing. Consequently we have multitudes of writers and film-makers all in competition touting their scripts and showreels to a rigged, diminishing (and often closed) market which, in reality puts MOST professional writers - and film-makers- out of work. Writers need to know what the reality of the business and market before they consider a career writing. William Nicholson the British scriptwriter for 'Shadowlands' and 'Gladiator' likens it to witnessing a creative generation lost in the holocaust of WW1! What is the percentage of writers who see work produced for instance? What is the percentage of film school/acting school/writer course graduates currently making features IN BRITAIN? It has created a permission based culture of gatekeepers and arbiters and the 'X-Factor' syndrome. Think of it this way - in music terms - imagine any group - the Stones or Pistols going along and seeking 'permission' with a 30 second extract of a song that they want to meekly ask executives to consider commissioning. Professional writers with great track records - such as David Hare and Jonathan Gems have been trying to tell this to writers for some time now.
The REAL issue for scriptwriters is that of film and script distribution and exhibition. This explains the issue exactly and I hope writers will read this; http://www.puremovies.co.uk/articles/why-we-dont-have-our-own-cinema/